[00:00:00] **Andrew Lloyd Gordon:** Hi, I am Andrew. Welcome to the Work Unraveled podcast. In each episode, we break down a piece of the workplace puzzle, providing practical insights, fresh perspectives, and actionable solutions to help you navigate the ever-changing world of work. 

[00:00:15] **Scott:** And I'm Scott, whether you are a leader, a professional, or simply curious about what makes organizations tick, this show offers strategies to think smarter, work better, and lead boldly join us as we turn workplace complexity into clarity.

One episode at a time.

[00:00:32] **Andrew Lloyd Gordon:** I used to have this idea if somebody said to me, burnout, I didn't actually know what it meant. And I think there's this expression, if you think about what burnout sounds like, it's like something burns out and it, it's destroyed. It's sort of, you know, in, in flames, um, literally burnt out. But if you look at the definition of burnout is this idea of, uh, chronic workplace stress.

So as an individual, you are. Stressed and we can go into what, what that looks like. And from that stress, you get negative consequences. So for different people, burnout can mean different things. And so for me, I think the definition is something around you are not being the best version of yourself.

You're not being who you want be, and you are exhausted and stressed by your work.

[00:01:19] **Scott:** Mm. And with the, the analogy, you know, the burnout, would kind of then tie that into fighting, being in fighting fires mode. Where actually if in the workplace you are literally feeling that you're fighting fires, work's coming from left, right, and center, you're putting, dealing with one thing and there's more coming in than you can cope with that is. Absolutely gonna lead to you feeling burnt out, exhausted. You can't cope and just, you know, burnt out. hence the name.

[00:01:48] **Andrew Lloyd Gordon:** One thing we do need to stress, it's not a medical condition, so it's not as though you can necessarily go. Your GP might, you went to the doctors and said, look, I'm feeling burnt out. I'm sure the GP would understand what you meant, but there's no, if you know you've got a medical dictionary down, there's no medical definition of burnt out.

It's not a, an ailment. It's not as though you can pass it to each other. You can't catch burnout from somebody, but it's this idea of feeling exhausted. It's this, uh, mental distancing, so you feel perhaps detached from your work. Often you'll find that people feel very cynical about their work. They, they feel that there's nothing they can do to make a change.

They're not listened to. And as you were saying, they, they've got too many priorities. Things are getting on top of people actually. But there's some real implications, and this is why it's really important that people know about themselves individually. But also if they manage a team implications of, of the drawbacks and negative, um, consequences of burnout,

[00:02:44] **Scott:** I always like to think people have and certainly reflect on myself. We only have a certain amount of capacity to cope with what life throws us. And I think if you are. Struggling with home. So maybe you've got young kids or there's some stress at home for whatever reason. And then if work is stressful as well that will contribute to that burnout.

You know, it's not, this isn't just about feeling burnt out at work. You could feel burnt out in your personal life, couldn't you?

[00:03:10] **Andrew Lloyd Gordon:** Completely. And I think some of the research suggests that, and I've got some stats to share in a moment, but some of the research suggests it's those people who are super engaged, the people who are really. You know, this what we used to call the sort of a types, the, the assertive go-getters. The, the people who push themselves.

So they might, they might push themselves at work, you know, that they want to get promotions, they wanna do well, but also they have got very high standards at home. And perhaps if you a caregiver, you've got care responsibilities, whether that's children. Um, you know, older adults, uh, family members. So sometimes burnout actually happens because of that literal overwhelm that you're experiencing and you can be burnt out because of what's going on at home and or at work.

But yeah, it's those people who are, they've set themselves very high standards and they've essentially got a lot on their plate. The people that most, most at risk of burnout.

[00:04:05] **Scott:** I've seen that play out recently with my other half. She's taken on a new role and they're still kind of expecting her to do a bit of the old role at the same time. So it's like doing two jobs at the same time. And she's learning, she's getting up to speed and the amount of meetings that she's being asked to attend is just ridiculous.

Expected to work through lunch, no lunch break, you know, we both work from home most of the time, so I'm trying to . bring her nourishment and say, "are you gonna get a chance to stand up and get some fresh air with the dog?" So , I'm seeing that impact on her in terms of, approaching burnout sometimes. And it's, it's those kind of people I think that are effective, as you said, and are successful, that get promoted or get the new job or get, "well give it to this person. 'cause they always get it done" and that person just keeps taking it on. Taking it on. You know, they say the phrase is, if you want something done, give it to a busy person.

[00:04:57] **Andrew Lloyd Gordon:** That's right. I mean, we say that because often those phrases have a nugget of truth in them. And again, I'm sorry to hear that about your partner, but that'll be a very common experience for many people listening to this, is they have got so much that they are already doing. But they feel as though they're just not doing enough.

There's still so much more to do, whether it's at work, which is obviously what we're talking about mostly on this podcast or, and or they've got it at home. And the other thing I'd, I, I'd say to you about your partner is, I, I hope she realizes she's not alone.

The statistics are absolutely appalling. There's a 2022 study, I think it was, or maybe 2023. 65% of people employed in the UK experienced, or at least feel as though they're, they're starting to, to burn out.

And something like one in three UK adults, I think I'm right in thinking about 30, 30, 40% of, adults felt lots of pressure from their employer. So if you think about it, that's a huge number of people who are feeling that sort of pressure. And the thing I'd suggest to anybody listening to this, if they are feeling that way, is you're not alone.

And I think there's a bit of a stigma. You know, we talk about burnout, but do you think there's some sort of stigma around admitting that you're feeling burnt out? Would you, anybody you know want to admit that you're feeling burnt out? Is that something people would even acknowledge?

[00:06:16] **Scott:** Yeah, I think definitely the, I think it's better than it used to be, but I think depending on the culture of the organization and the leadership is this kind of mindset, well just get on with it. Or you are weak if you can't do all the work you're being asked to do, which I think is fundamentally wrong, and it's unfair and unhealthy and disrespectful, frankly, to the employees that the organizations work for. I think the problem isn't just in the amount of work that people are being given, it's also the dysfunction that's going on in the organization. It's all the, as I said, all the wasted time sat in meetings. I think the average worker loses one day, one or two days a month, and some people may say this is much higher for them, one or two days. month sat in pointless meetings that they could be doing other things. Meetings and emails are talking about work, not doing work. So actually part of that burnout problem is gonna be people employed to do a job to deliver value, but spending half the time wrestling with the bureaucracy of the organization, the dysfunction, to try and just do their job. So that gives them very little capacity to actually do the value added stuff that makes they'll feel rewarded and actually. Helps the customers at the end of the day.

[00:07:26] **Andrew Lloyd Gordon:** Y Yeah. I, I think when you are somebody that is super engaged and you, you really got those high standards and then you get dragged into a three hour meeting that where there's no agenda. There was no documents sent beforehand. You're not even sure why you're in the meeting. The meetings doesn't keep to time.

Nobody is keeping you to, even if there was an agenda, nobody's even keeping track of the agenda. There's no notes taken, there's no actions taken. The number of meetings I have been in, I hope anybody listening to this, there's a meeting that I ran. People, people are probably shouting, well, that was one of your meetings, Andrew.

But you know, I hate those type of meetings and I, I work with so many clients where that's their life. That is their life. They are constantly dragged from one meeting to another. Now, anybody listening to this will say, well, how do we get things done? How do we. How do we communicate? There are far better ways to communicate within an organization.

You mentioned things like email, whether that's, I dunno, getting people to, uh, read a document rather than actually attend a meeting, recording a video that you can send around the team, talking to people face to face. But as you point out, if you've got a lot on your plate and then you're just back to back meetings, you're gonna, you're gonna burn out because you cannot get done what you are there to do.

[00:08:41] **Scott:** I say to people, if you look to your role profile, I. That you were given when you joined the organization. I bet you won't find anything on there that says, attend hours of meetings every day, spend most of your day sat in your inbox. There's actually stuff on there that you're meant to be doing that add value, but the organization quite often is not geared up to allow you to do that. And when you join a job. And it'd be interesting to see over time. I'm sure over time it just wears people down. Where you start a new job, you've got great excitement. "I'm gonna make a difference". 'cause we know that that's what drives people and is good for their mental health. To think, actually,

"I made a difference. Every day I come home from work and I achieve something, I move the needle slightly. I helped a colleague, I helped a customer".

If that's taken away from them due to all the chaos, frankly, over time, that's just gonna wear them down even before you add on the burnout on top of that and that pressure, they will feel if they're conscientious to say, "well, I just can't get my work done". That's going to just tip people over the edge. And it does tip people over the edge.

[00:09:43] **Andrew Lloyd Gordon:** It, it really does. And I think there were two parts to this. There's the individual's response to stress. So the research suggests that each of us have different levels of, of, of capability towards stress. And one thing that I might find very stressful, you may not, and vice versa. So I think we also have to acknowledge differences, individual differences.

Somebody may have tons of things in their inbox. And it doesn't bother them. I, I've got a friend of mine who I, I, I'm somebody that I use the search function in, in boxes. It, the email can drop down below the screen, you know, the, below the bottom of the screen, and I don't mind, I can find it again.

It drives her nuts because she has to answer every email. Uh, I'm, I'm laughing, but just that's her style. So when she sees my inbox of like 13,000 apparently unread or undealt with emails, she absolutely freaks out. Are you, what? What type of inbox person are you? Are you inbox zero type person or just you can find them when you want them?

[00:10:40] **Scott:** I help, I help train teams on inbox zero, so yeah, you're giving me the hebbie jeebies, Andrew.

[00:10:45] **Andrew Lloyd Gordon:** You see for me, emails, they can be found. I can search for them. So I think when we talk about burnout, we're talking about, you know, what we're talking about today. There is definitely an individual perception. So when we get onto practical things people can do, it's your own attitude to your work, which is important.

If you are a dedicated person, you want to do the best thing. But going back to what you were saying. If the organization hasn't got a culture of "let's drive efficiency, let's make things easy for people, let's reduce meetings, let's improve communication", then those two things can meet in the middle.

Your personal attitude to work and the culture of the organization If they're out of sync, that's when you get this, this real issue of burnout. But. What you pointed out there, and I think this is really important to recognize, is that both sides lose the individual starts to feel as though, as I mentioned, they're starting to feel cynical.

They're starting to feel detached. It can affect their sleep, it can affect their health. They can bring that stuff home. So they're starting to impact onto their personal relations with their family members, with their spouse, partners, and so on. But also the organization starts to have somebody who is not by choice.

Inefficient. Somebody who is confused, somebody is stressed, somebody who is taking time off work. So it, it sounds like a, an issue that the, that the individuals need to sort it out. But it's, it's two sides. It's, it's your personal attitude to work, but you need to be supported in that workplace to be able to do your best every day.

[00:12:14] **Scott:** So in terms of some, some things people can do to start to break this cycle or even prevent the cycle. From my perspective, from a productivity standpoint, I would be saying to people it's important to try and get a grip of what matters the most. And I say to people, you, there will always be more work that you can ever do. you could literally work 24 hours a day, seven days a week and never finish all the work that's out there for you to do. you have to prioritize. And I, I, I like the phrase " if you're feeling overwhelmed, you just don't know what to prioritize next". So it's about saying, all right, well, so one thing I can do today that will start to move a needle. And that means actually starting to say no to people and say, well, I can't do everything I've been asked to do here. Here is what I think my priorities are. And if you've got a boss that's supportive, say to them, can you help me prioritize this?

'cause I'm being asked to do far too much. It may be the boss that's asking you to do far too much. But it's starting to try and prioritize that work and, and not be in fighting fires mode. And try and get some order to it. I mean, this is a whole talk, and I won't make the whole rest of the podcast episode about this, but it's, it's starting to prioritize it, isn't it?

And thinking about, I can't do everything. That's okay. I need to start communicating to everybody. I can't do everything. And then what can I do that will make a difference? And then people start to see that difference. And then hopefully in my experience, over time, the pressure starts to drop off. Would you agree?

[00:13:38] **Andrew Lloyd Gordon:** Uh oh completely. Some really great tips. I think the, for me, from a sort of psychological perspective, it's that self-awareness. So the first thing, if anybody's listening to this and they, they think they're feeling burnt out, just recognize you're not alone.

And many of the colleagues around you, even the people that look like super effective and the super productive ones, many of those will be feeling. Burnt out as well. So first of all, don't be hard on yourself if you're feeling burnt out. And I think the second thing is, is to perhaps recognize the symptoms if you are, you know, getting poor sleep if you feel exhausted all the time.

You know, even if you do get eight hours of sleep, but you get up in the morning and you are exhausted if you're dreading going into work, if you feel very ineffective and it, it might be to do with the, the meeting culture, but you never seem to be able to focus. You can't get anything done. You, you never get anything completed.

Start recognizing those symptoms. It's really important and you might just, that, that in itself can actually be a massive help. Just noticing things and just being kind to yourself, first of all. So I think the first thing for me is that self-awareness and once you've started to acknowledge what's going on, I think as you pointed out.

Seek support. If you have a boss, and let's hope people listening to this do have a boss or a supervisor or whatever it is, you can go and talk to them. You know, you can go and say, look, I'm, I'm, I'm struggling here. In your experience, how many bosses would be open to that sort of approach? 

[00:15:02] **Scott:** Certainly in the organization I was in for 20 years, it was in the early days, not as supportive over the, over the time when this kind of stuff became safer to talk about. There was a lot more support. It was, it was expected of bosses to supportive of their staff.

I think. Over time, it did get a lot better than it used to be, but certainly early on, and I'm sure it's the same across other industries, was it was just expected. It was as, as we said earlier, as it was seen as a bit of a weakness. I think the. We are talking about staff speaking to their bosses for support.

Equally, those bosses need to start if they're not already thinking, "am I contributing to this problem actually? Am I giving my team too much to do? Am I passing my burnout onto them? And actually, am I managing upwards to, try and think about how do we prioritize work? How do we not do everything that's been asked for us and more?"

[00:15:57] **Andrew Lloyd Gordon:** My experience, I think 20, 30 years ago, if you'd gone to a boss and said, you're feeling exhausted. They many bosses, if you like, the old school would've, totted would've been very disappointed.

It, it wouldn't be something you could do. So I, I, I think, I feel, I hope that in many workplaces now, this is, this is something you could go and talk to people about. Clearly, if you've been working with the boss for a while, you will know If he or she's open to this, you, you, you'll already have a sense, won't you, that the boss that you have is probably part of the problem, so you will know I.

Whether that boss is gonna be open to this, I think it's still worth exploring that with your boss if, if he or she is part of the problem. We could talk probably in another episode how you do that. I think we could talk about managing upwards. But yeah, the first step is to try and get this out. The open is to talk to your boss and, and frame it around.

It, not that they are the problem, 'cause they could be, they could be a big part of the problem, but how you're not maybe achieving all that you could, you're not, you're not able to do as much as you'd like to do. You know, put it in sort of the positive sense. Now, I'd hope that your boss, the person you're reporting to, is gonna provide that extra support, is gonna help you.

Of course, as you mentioned. It may be you, you, you are the boss, maybe you are the person leading the team, and you're probably recognizing burnout in yourself. And of course, that irritation, that short temper, I. That frustration that's gonna cause burnout into, into the rest of the team. So yeah, that self-awareness, but seeking support I think is really important.

Now, if you can't go to your boss, if you can't go to that person that you report to, have you got support elsewhere? You know, friends, family, if you have to. I mentioned the GP before, perhaps going to seek. Medical input, at least talking to your doctor. Um, if you have a, a counselor or therapist, you can, you can talk to, but usually just a good friend to offload.

You do not want to carry this stuff on your own. It's not healthy. Of course, it's easy for us to say, but the first step is once you recognized it, it's going to explore it with other people. Ideally, the boss. If you are an organization, is there an HR department, is there a union person you can talk to, but yet you want to get this out.

If you start to recognize these symptoms, do not please, if anybody is, is listening to this, do not Please try and carry this on your own. You need that support.

[00:18:20] **Scott:** Yeah, and absolutely agree. I've, I've been there myself in terms of needing that support and sometimes you don't realize it until you get that outside perspective and someone says, you, "you're looking pretty strung out. You're looking pretty tired". So actually listen to, well listen to your body, listen to. Colleagues and family as well. I think just another quick, practical tip that our listeners can do straight after listening to this or when they get into the office if they're on their commute, is start to try and claim some of your time back. I've seen a lot of people who their diary is controlled by other people.

Basically, they're just people stick meetings in without even asking You, you come in and your diary's just filled up for you. So actually what I advise people to do is to block out a set amount of time in your calendar. You can make it a recurring appointment, block it out as busy you're using Outlook or other, other calendars are available, block it out as busy private appointment and make it a recurring one.

Probably your your highest value time, which is probably first thing in the morning. Don't delve straight into your inbox. out a half an hour or an hour, and you'll be amazed at the difference that'll make what you can do. Just get your head down and stop people taking all your time away from you and gradually chipping away at that, that that can be really quite powerful.

So just a quick tip there to, uh, to do straight after you've listened to this.

[00:19:40] **Andrew Lloyd Gordon:** Yeah, carving out that space for you to do what you need to do and giving yourself the sense that you are moving things forward, you are moving projects forward.

If you are somebody that has people who who report to you, can you delegate more? And some of the research suggests that people who suffer from burnout, they're the people that. You know, they have to, they, they, they, maybe it can be an imposter syndrome thing, but they feel as they, they've gotta do everything themselves.

Can you learn to delegate? Can you train up somebody in your team to do some of the work that you, you, you normally do? And I'll say this, and I mean this in a, in a positive way, and I'll say, lower your standards. Now what I mean by that, if I go back to my inbox example, yeah. You know, in zero inbox, whatever you do.

But are there areas where good enough is good enough? Do you have to have the level of, of standards that you always set yourself some really high standards. In the really important areas. Of course, you've gotta keep those high standards, but are there other things that maybe I don't need to, to, to go to that detail?

Maybe I don't need to complete it as soon as, as, as I usually do or something. So I'm not, I'm not saying, you know, lower your standards in the areas that that matter the most, but in the areas where things aren't as important or aren't as critical, can you let go? Can you have a not to do list? Can you start to say, well, there's things I have to do, but things I'm definitely not gonna do.

So yeah, carving out that autonomy, trying to get back that sense of control. But also the final thing I'd say on that sense of control is make sure you've got some boundaries between your work and your home. And this is harder for us to do when we carry our devices with us all the time. Can you get into the habit of not checking your work emails at dinner when you're at home, can you get into the habit of if you've got two devices, you know the work one stays in the drawer.

Until the morning, uh, can you carve out the fact when you go home, you are at home and I will not look at emails. Now, ideally you'd have a, a work culture where we don't email people after working hours and you know the Or on holiday. Exactly. On holiday. Take your holidays for goodness sake, if you've got annual leave.

And as we mentioned at the start, this is something that if you are suffering from this, please don't feel embarrassed. Don't feel any shame. It's very common, it's very normal, but we don't have to accept it.

We can do things about it. We can do things about this as individuals. We've, we've offered you loads of tips and ideas and suggestions. Most importantly, if you are a leader, if you are a manager, it's beholden upon you to do something for your team in terms of burnout. And as you were saying, you know, making sure that meetings are effective, making sure that people are trained, they, they know what their job is, communication is, is effective.

[00:22:16] **Scott:** Yeah. As we said, both business benefits and the employee benefits and frankly the employee's family benefits. Everyone benefits, don't they? It's this, you know, this is just, we don't want to be strung out and burnt out and exhausted at work 'cause nobody wins. Then we need to get that balance right.

[00:22:33] **Andrew Lloyd Gordon:** Thank you for listening to the Work Unraveled podcast. We hope you enjoyed this episode. Be sure to subscribe to the show so you don't miss the next one. 

[00:22:42] **Scott:** If you'd like Andrew or me to help you or your business, whether it is for team productivity, leadership, coaching, or communication skills, our website addresses are in the show notes.

Thanks, and until the next time.