[00:00:00] **Andrew Lloyd Gordon:** So, have you ever had one of those weeks where you know the plan, you come in on a Monday morning or you, you open up your computer on a Monday morning if you're working from home or the coffee shop, and you've got this plan for the week by about Tuesday afternoon. That plan has gone completely awry.

What we're talking about, I think on this episode is what becomes increasingly normal for organizations and individuals is managing in a world of uncertainty and turbulence and churn and confusion and chaos.

How do we as managers and leaders, or even people who aren't maybe leading, how do you operate in that fog of uncertainty? know, and, and we'll try and offer some tips and suggestions in this episode and maybe draw on some examples, our own personal experience and some case studies.

But what's your take on this, Scott? I mean, you, you worked with teams, I'm sure you've worked in teams where it was always uncertain. Was it always like you, you knew what was gonna happen next sort of thing.

[00:01:03] **Scott:** Yeah, I think uncertainty and change is kind of a given these days and. Certainly when I was leading teams before it, it was like that you, I I, I would always say to the team that we need to see change as an opportunity, not a threat. Now I help teams is saying, is a given, so what are we going to do about it?

How can we lead in a way that navigates through uncertainty? Keeps people with you, keeps you going in the same direction, but also gives you the resilience to deal with those shocks and those surprises that are guaranteed to happen.

And there's a quote that I think is often misattributed to Mike Tyson and it's, everybody has a plan until they get hit in the face. Have you heard that?

[00:01:50] **Andrew Lloyd Gordon:** I have, we used to have one in the military, which was essentially every plan changes on contact with the enemy. You, you have a plan what you're gonna do, whether it's, you know, take that hill in a certain way, but the enemy for some reason don't cooperate with your plans. They always try and do something different damn them.

[00:02:07] **Scott:** Yeah.

[00:02:07] **Andrew Lloyd Gordon:** So yeah, that great, that great philosopher Mike Tyson.

[00:02:11] **Scott:** That's interesting.

'cause of course the military, you know, it's pretty serious if your plans don't go the way you expect them to go. And that recognition in that quote that the plans will change and will go wrong.

[00:02:21] **Andrew Lloyd Gordon:** Mm.

[00:02:22] **Scott:** think can learn a lot from military. Have you got any, you build on that at all in terms of your experience there?

[00:02:28] **Andrew Lloyd Gordon:** I've never really thought about it actually, Scott, but that, that is an interesting reflection and if you like thinking from the top of my head, I think what the military I in the Army. What, what they are all about is the army has an ingrained memory. usually based on mistakes and failures and a lot of the stuff.

So if you're a civilian and you look, and we don't wanna turn this into sort of, you know, military podcasts, but if you look at a lot of the things the military do, they, they don't make any sense from, uh, a civilian's perspective, but what's happened very often, certainly with the British military, is a long and sometimes not very glorious.

Uh, history means there were lots of failures, you know, things went wrong for a military campaign or. You know, a certain battle. So the military. Which people often don't realize, learns, and then it ingrains, uh, behaviors to try and prevent that failure happening, happening again. So I think what the military does and that quote all, all plans change on contact with the enemy is a realization that nothing is certain.

And you can have, you know, the best laid plans are gonna go awry. So what the military do, there's something, what you do in the military and you might know this is what's called actions on. And the idea in. Uh, any sort of campaign or battle or something you're trying to do is you, before you start, you've got this plan, but you talk about actions on what happens if, what happens if, what happens if, and you practice and rehearse what you will do if the plan sort of goes, goes south.

So I think, yeah, I think, I think the military does lend itself to, to, you know, there, there are things you can learn from that, that sort of approach is we're gonna have a plan. And as we'll talk about later, okay, let's imagine the plan doesn't work. What are we gonna do? But I've never, I've never really thought about it before, actually, Scott, since you said, um, but yeah.

[00:04:23] **Scott:** that's interesting about the learning from the mistakes when we, we have both talked about this on other episodes around, you know, test to fail, learn from mistakes and grow. That's how you improve and that's how you know

[00:04:34] **Andrew Lloyd Gordon:** Yeah.

[00:04:36] **Scott:** And I've certainly seen in organizations that I've worked in, but also that I've helped that organizational memory often gets lost. And you get maybe the small voices you get, wait a minute. done this before and it didn't work last time. You know, maybe someone's

[00:04:52] **Andrew Lloyd Gordon:** Yeah.

[00:04:52] **Scott:** with a new initiative and organizations don't store that organizational knowledge potentially in the way that it sounds like the Army does or the military does, because

[00:05:04] **Andrew Lloyd Gordon:** I.

[00:05:04] **Scott:** you know, you, if we're talking about how do you deal with uncertainty. There are gonna be times when the organization and individuals have

[00:05:11] **Andrew Lloyd Gordon:** Yeah.

[00:05:12] **Scott:** of thing before, maybe not exactly the same thing. So actually what can you take from that previous learning? You know, we know

[00:05:18] **Andrew Lloyd Gordon:** Hmm.

[00:05:18] **Scott:** traditional project approaches you'll have reviews and you'll have, you

[00:05:23] **Andrew Lloyd Gordon:** Hmm.

[00:05:23] **Scott:** do we learn from this project?

What, what would we do differently next time? But how often are those ever referred to those documents that are produced like years later? I don't, I doubt that's referred to very often to learn from previous experiences.

[00:05:37] **Andrew Lloyd Gordon:** No. Again, I say we, we, we, obviously, we we're not, we don't wanna talk too much about. The military, but I think probably from my experience, what I'd suggest is the military is, is dealing with life and death. Clearly. Some people listening to this are also dealing with, with life and death situations, but the, the stakes are incredibly high, uh, in military operations.

So there's a real pressure I. To remember and to learn. It doesn't always work out as the, the history of the British military is lots and lots of military successes, but also military failures. But yeah, the military does have a system for capturing that painful lesson and trying to prevent it happening again.

I think going back to your point, many organizations I work in, they, they have this desire to manage the world and to try and make uncertainty go away. And the way that we do that and leaders can fall into this trap is confidence in our plans. And I think what we're talking about here is. We should have an acceptance, which is again, what the military perhaps does have is the world is not certain.

Life is not certain, plans are not always going to succeed. let's think before we start, what are we gonna do if this changes or that changes? So going back to your your point about organizational memory, I think that there isn't always a culture, and this is my topic of cultural safety and psychological safety.

I'd probably say it in every episode. There isn't a culture where people can go, uh, excuse me, we've already tried that. Or even if you haven't tried it and you're doing something new, whether people can actually say, okay, have you thought about this? Have you thought about that? Have you thought about this?

Because leaders are often recruited into positions because they are confident or at least they give that air of confidence. They are sure of themselves. They are sure that whatever they're proposing will will actually work. So I think there's, there's a lot of factors, but I think, I think you're absolutely right.

There isn't that, that, um, organizational memory. So how, how do we, if we, we are, we're not ne necessarily that good at, uh, sort of dealing with uncertainty, then how, how, how would you recommend that organizations better manage uncertainty?

[00:07:50] **Scott:** I think first it's important to understand the sources of uncertainty.

[00:07:54] **Andrew Lloyd Gordon:** Yeah. Yes.

[00:07:55] **Scott:** sources, things like politics, market changes, policy shifts, budgets, customer needs changing, and you know, I.

Certainly in the tech space, customer needs change rapidly, also internal sources of uncertainty.

So there could be some

[00:08:11] **Andrew Lloyd Gordon:** Yes.

[00:08:11] **Scott:** changes at the top,

[00:08:13] **Andrew Lloyd Gordon:** Yes.

[00:08:13] **Scott:** in teams that's gonna have some effect. You're getting a new

[00:08:16] **Andrew Lloyd Gordon:** Yeah.

[00:08:17] **Scott:** in, your boss is leaving, or a key member of another department you work with is, is going out the door. What does that mean? They help me do my job. know, restructuring, we know a lot of organizations go through that. Unclear roles. You know, I've said before, I'm sure on another episode, how many people's job description actually fits what they are expected to do these days. So are they, if they're not clear in their role, that's gonna cause uncertainty to for individuals. Internal politics as well. 'cause we know

[00:08:45] **Andrew Lloyd Gordon:** Yeah.

[00:08:46] **Scott:** sadly. And silo working between different departments. You know, if, if aren't talking to each other and they're keeping, their borders closed, there's gonna be uncertainty. Well, what are they doing? Are they on the same side as us? And it breeds that kind of stuff. So I think a first step is identifying what are we dealing with, where are these sources of uncertainty?

'cause unless you know. enemy, haven't got a chance of actually starting to deal with that. So that's the first thing I would say is identify

[00:09:14] **Andrew Lloyd Gordon:** Mm.

[00:09:15] **Scott:** and then start to think

[00:09:16] **Andrew Lloyd Gordon:** Yes.

[00:09:16] **Scott:** what's the next step for that.

[00:09:18] **Andrew Lloyd Gordon:** Yeah, absolutely. I agree completely with that. I think I was just thinking as you were, you were saying there, you almost have to have an appetite for uncertainty. You have to be clear on uncertainty and as a lead, I would recommend is you need to be comfortable with uncertainty and uh, uh, going back to my previous point, I think leaders and managers.

Whether it's in their psychology, whether it's in that sort of personality thing or just that, that they're playing that role. They do, they don't want to admit to uncertainty and they don't want to show their team that they're uncertain. So I think what I'd recommend, and, and I think you, you make absolutely some really important points.

There are so many different sources of uncertainty. There's some prioritization that we need to, need to do. So let's list out the areas of uncertainty. It's called, if you like, uncertainty mapping. You know, what are the things that we can be fairly confident on and what are the things we have a very low level of confidence on?

So when we're creating those plans, when we're creating those, you know, goals and objectives, let's do some uncertainty mapping. And there was some interesting research that came out from the National Audit Office in the uk. I dunno if you know the NAO and if anybody listening to this is, is probably better versed about the role of the NAO, but as I understand it.

In the uk, the NAO, national Audit Office, their role is to ensure that government money is spent wisely, and that best practice is, is implemented across government. And they actually found in their research that lots of departments, government departments, they rely too much on their own internal modeling.

They rely too much on their own internal, you know, assessment of the world without looking outside, without sort of looking for that uncertainty. So it's not just. organizations that do this. It's, it's quite normal, I think. Why, why do you think organizations tend to have that, you know, internal, view rather than looking around the world like you listed?

Why, why don't they do that? Uncertainty mapping, perhaps? Any thoughts?

[00:11:20] **Scott:** probably a number of reasons. One being. Capacity. You know,

[00:11:24] **Andrew Lloyd Gordon:** Hmm.

[00:11:25] **Scott:** on, depending on the, where the organization is, where the company is, they could,

[00:11:29] **Andrew Lloyd Gordon:** Yeah.

[00:11:30] **Scott:** certainly seen literally flying from the seat of their pants and focusing on the day to day. 'cause they don't have capacity to look outside, project ahead, think about

[00:11:40] **Andrew Lloyd Gordon:** Yeah.

[00:11:40] **Scott:** a future might look like for the company. let alone look at what's going on around them at that point in time. So

[00:11:47] **Andrew Lloyd Gordon:** Hmm.

[00:11:48] **Scott:** one of the big things is. Capacity probably a bit of, dunno, how would I word it? Um, a maybe a,

[00:11:58] **Andrew Lloyd Gordon:** Bravado or.

[00:11:58] **Scott:** maybe a bit of that. Yeah, I was thinking also maybe just afraid to the lid. 'cause it's almost better to

[00:12:05] **Andrew Lloyd Gordon:** Yeah,

[00:12:05] **Scott:** about it than or

[00:12:07] **Andrew Lloyd Gordon:** that's true.

[00:12:08] **Scott:** be.

All right. We'll just carry on

[00:12:10] **Andrew Lloyd Gordon:** That's true.

[00:12:11] **Scott:** everything will be all

[00:12:12] **Andrew Lloyd Gordon:** Yeah. I, I like that. That's actually interesting as well. I think there is a bit of denial going on.

[00:12:18] **Scott:** word. Thank you,

[00:12:19] **Andrew Lloyd Gordon:** Um, yeah, again, from a psychologist, I think, I think there was definitely a bit of mix of things, imposter syndrome, bravado, confidence, but also denial. And, and, and maybe we don't want to look at, at, at, at uncertainty.

We don't want to think about things we can't control because that makes us anxious. That makes us feel uneasy. And like a lot of things in life, we'd rather sort of put that in a box and put that box over there and not look at that box, Pandora's box if you like, because we don't, we don't wanna go there.

So yeah, I think there's probably a mix of reasons why organizations don't, don't count. Uh, factor in on certainty more.

[00:12:56] **Scott:** And I, I think that people within those organizations, be it the leaders and the, the staff within will deal with uncertainty differently as well. My other half, she's going through what the organization she's in is going through a massive restructure. It's, they seem to go through restructure every three to five years. She's quite relaxed about it, even though there is. Uncertainty of what the future looks like in the next 12 to 18 months for her

[00:13:22] **Andrew Lloyd Gordon:** Yeah.

[00:13:22] **Scott:** But her view is, we've been through this before in similar ways. There's this tended to be a job for me and job for others. So I'm just gonna focus on doing

[00:13:32] **Andrew Lloyd Gordon:** Mm

[00:13:32] **Scott:** I can in the role I'm doing at the moment, that's all I can do. other people I know, certainly the people that she works with, uh. They're already looking for other jobs. They're,

[00:13:46] **Andrew Lloyd Gordon:** oh dear.

[00:13:47] **Scott:** out, they're worried. And, you know, people are gonna deal with things in different ways. And what we want to get to in this episode, of course, is how can leaders help people on that Because, you know,

[00:13:59] **Andrew Lloyd Gordon:** Yeah.

[00:14:00] **Scott:** dealing with them in, in different ways. And I think one of the first things that I. Say to teams generally, let alone dealing with uncertainties, trying to normalize uncertainty and change. And to do that

[00:14:14] **Andrew Lloyd Gordon:** Yes.

[00:14:15] **Scott:** to know where you are going. And I always

[00:14:17] **Andrew Lloyd Gordon:** Hmm.

[00:14:18] **Scott:** example of I. A plan versus a roadmap. Now, I normally show this on a whiteboard and it's very easy to visualize. So again, listeners are

[00:14:26] **Andrew Lloyd Gordon:** We will imagine it. Yeah.

[00:14:27] **Scott:** I try and describe it. So, a traditional plan tends to be fixed. So we are going to this, gonna go through these steps, and we're gonna get to an endpoint, and

[00:14:36] **Andrew Lloyd Gordon:** I.

[00:14:37] **Scott:** will launch a product, or we will reach a sales target, and it's very fixed and very rigid.

That's the traditional way, as I call it, of thinking about things. problem with that is, as we've said. Things rarely go to plan. So budgets may be cut, competitors may bring out something new. Resources may be taken away and that can derail the whole project. I

[00:15:01] **Andrew Lloyd Gordon:** Hmm.

[00:15:02] **Scott:** to help teams, and the way I've run this kind of thing is to say, right, we have a roadmap rather than the plan.

So we know our North Star, we know where we're going, we know our direction of travel, but how we get there doesn't matter as much. So if you think about, and I use the example of driving to work. If you were driving to work on your commute and you took the same route every single day and you were very rigid on that, you will never change course. One day there's gonna be roadworks. You're gonna sit there and waste an hour sat in roadworks. if you are prepared to take a different route on some days to get to work, because satin nav rerout you, for example, you still get to your destination. So the difference is a plan is fixed. A roadmap is a direction of travel, but you are happy to change direction on route, and it gives you that flexibility and that builds in that resilience and saying, actually, we've got a new opportunity here that might help us get to a goal quicker, we will.

I. Change course, but we're still going in the right direction. , People need to know where they're going because that then breeds the uncertainty. If they dunno where they're going, they're kind of ru less in a boat, really gonna struggle with that as well. Does that make sense?

[00:16:13] **Andrew Lloyd Gordon:** I, I, yeah, I like, I like what you're saying there, Scott. I think you're absolutely right. I think that what we should be doing, and this is what we're suggesting with leaders, is that we are accepting the uncertainty as a given. There's that old phrase. You. You can't predict anything in life apart from taxes and.

Income tax and death, isn't it? I think death and income taxes, I, we should add into that. We can change that phrase. You can expect death, income, taxes and change. You know, you can expect uncertainty, so you are expecting uncertainty. You are you, you are building that into your planning. But like you said.

You are flexible in how you achieve your objective. The trouble is, and interesting you talked about the psychological perspective. I was thinking about leaders is some leaders are very rule driven and they're very, like, they're enforcing the plan. They want the plan done the way that they said they want the plan done.

What we agreed in the meeting in February and they're, they're enforcing. A plan, regardless of what else has changed. Those internal politics you talked about with resources and so on. And even if things have changed, they still want the plan to be implemented various reasons. Maybe they have pressure from their boss, their leader, that the group, the head of group, wants the plan implemented.

So I think sometimes leaders have got that external pressure, but also from a psychological perspective, some leaders are more comfortable with change than others. You know, all people are will vary along that, that continuum. So I think what a leader, like you said, should be able to do is have the emotional resilience to demonstrate to their team, we've got this, things have changed.

I. Something's come up. Uh, we're still gonna try and do this thing, or we're gonna try and do something else. We're gonna, we're gonna make this work. So going back to your point about people need a direction, they do, they absolutely do. But what they really want is confidence in that leader to say, we will work this out even if things have changed,

[00:18:08] **Scott:** Mm-hmm.

[00:18:08] **Andrew Lloyd Gordon:** even if things have dramatically changed, we can work this out.

So I say I think there's a psychological element here for the team. But there's also a psychology for the leader. How do you cope as a leader with change? You know, emotionally, intellectually, your reaction to change? Do you want to put your head onto the pillow and not get out in the morning? You know, you, you and I, I've met leaders, I've worked with leaders emotionally supporting leaders, and, feel dreadful about going into work.

I think people often think, you know, the leaders have got the easy life. They put their feet up on the desk. Often, leaders are the most stressed, the most tense, exhausted, emotionally drained people because they feel all that weight on their shoulders. So one of the things I would recommend as a way to manage this is, is pushing down decision making to the lower levels.

Because one of the problems, have you heard this, uh, story that the, um, the queen thought, God bless her, and probably, the king now in the UK, think that the world is full of newly painted buildings. you know this idea? So there was this argument, I'm, I'm sure it's the same with the king. You know when you're getting, like if you get, ever get a VIP come to your place.

I mean, you know, some visitor, you probably look around and go, oh my goodness, this place looks really shabby. need to paint. We need to paint before she arrives or the, the king arrives or whoever. the idea was that the queen was going around the world thinking everywhere I go has just been freshly painted.

Isn't it wonderful? Because probably that morning that they finished the last, I'm sure, I'm sure the paint was still wet. know, don't go there, queen. Don't go there king, because it's still wet. But the idea really is that there's, that if you are a leader, that you, you want your people to tell you things when they're not going well.

And you want your team to be able to manage things as they change. So what I think one of the ways leaders can manage uncertainty is, apart from that psychological thing, is pushing down control to the lowest level. That makes sense. And empowering. I think you are very big on this empowering, people to make decisions and make changes.

Would, would you agree that's a healthy approach to deal with uncertainty?

[00:20:09] **Scott:** Yeah, absolutely. Because then they feel they've got some level of control because as we know that

[00:20:14] **Andrew Lloyd Gordon:** Yeah.

[00:20:14] **Scott:** don't like feeling out of control not having any control to their destiny. Uh, and again, as I've, I keep going on about the closer they are to customer, the. They're more likely, they are to be more informed to make those best decisions.

So absolutely, I'm an advocate of pushing decisions down. And yeah, with my tech teams in the past, I would say to them, I don't, I don't have a clue what technology we would use that you choose. That's why you're employed to do that. And for some of those team members who'd worked in other organizations, they were like, really? But. But we normally get told what to do. I'm not saying I was an amazing leader by any means, but,

[00:20:54] **Andrew Lloyd Gordon:** I am sure you were.

[00:20:55] **Scott:** Andrew. I'll, I'll give you the five afterwards, but, um,

[00:20:59] **Andrew Lloyd Gordon:** Don't take that out in the edit.

[00:21:00] **Scott:** Okay. , but yeah, certainly the more we can help people have some control over their destiny and the right people, the better it's gonna be for them and frankly for the

[00:21:11] **Andrew Lloyd Gordon:** Mm.

[00:21:11] **Scott:** And I, I, I was

[00:21:12] **Andrew Lloyd Gordon:** Yeah.

[00:21:12] **Scott:** on when you were saying about the, the leaders carry the burden. I've certainly seen that myself and in my other half, she's feeling the pressure from, you know, her team members are like, what do we do? Where's, where's the future? What does it look like? But how leaders react and how we'll react to change is, is kind of. Hardwired into us, isn't it? If we go back to our cave people, uh, days, you know, change was a threat. You know, there was a new member of the tribe came in. Are they going to unseat me if I'm in charge of the tribe? Or what's that noise coming around the corner to the cave? Is it a bear? Do we need to be as scared and run away?

There's, you know, we, we are naturally wired, aren't we? To, to be unsettled by change, to protect ourselves and. I

[00:21:59] **Andrew Lloyd Gordon:** Yeah.

[00:21:59] **Scott:** that's why some people still struggle in the workplace with that. I'm not saying change is

[00:22:03] **Andrew Lloyd Gordon:** Hmm.

[00:22:03] **Scott:** and sometimes change can be difficult and mean people lose their jobs. I'm not saying that's not a thing that's not important, but day-to-day

[00:22:12] **Andrew Lloyd Gordon:** I.

[00:22:13] **Scott:** and the world that we live in and being able to be relaxed as you can about that and support people through that and see it as I always say, an opportunity, not a threat, be empowering

[00:22:24] **Andrew Lloyd Gordon:** Uh, yeah, it, it, it really can be. And I think that it's the framing of what's going on. You can either, you can either frame it as a leader, and again, we're talking about leaders managing this because people are looking for you to lead. They're looking for you to lead in terms of your demeanor, in terms of your attitude.

We want leaders who are positive and enthusiastic. We don't want leaders to tell us lies. We don't want just leaders who say everything is fine, you know that, um, what's that meme dog and is holding a cup and there's like a fire around it and said, this is fine.

. We don't want leaders to overdo it either. We don't leaders to say that, you know, the sky is falling in, but we want leaders to recognize that things are going to change. So the framing of it is, oh, okay, guys quite work out. As we said, there's something coming at us. As you mentioned, it could be internal, it could be external.

I mean, we've had the, the 2008 financial crisis we had here in the uk, we had Brexit. Uh, we had COVID, I mean, talk about change. And in fact, actually adapted really quite well, I think with COVID is surprising how quickly they adapted to COVID , the EU referendum, all that stuff.

Now we've got the war in Ukraine, we've got Trump. Change is normal. as I say, I think what leaders can do is they can frame that for people. Now, going back to your anxiety thing, if you're not good at framing what's going on, that this is normal, this is healthy, but also possibly positioning it as opportunity.

Wow, okay. That's not what we expected. be creative . What can we do that's gonna seize this opportunity, this idea of never turn down a, a crisis. You know, the idea of there's always something good that can come out of a crisis. So I think one of the jobs of a leader is to reassure people that we've got this, like I said, but also we can turn this into an opportunity.

We can do something with it. I think the other thing you mentioned as well is that leaders are often under, you know, huge pressure themselves, like I said internally, but also from a career perspective. They've got this image of themselves as can do. They're gonna make things work regardless. And they're thinking about their own jobs.

They're thinking about their own mortgages, they're thinking about their own careers and they, they wanna be successful. as I say, I think as leaders, that's, that's our job is to, is to understand change, is to understand uncertainty and be good at it actually, if you like. As managers and leaders, we're good at dealing with uncertainty.

We're good at leading through uncertainty, and that's a skill that you can develop.

[00:24:51] **Scott:** And I, I, think it's a balance, as you said before, around being, , transparent, being humble and, you know,

[00:25:00] **Andrew Lloyd Gordon:** Mm.

[00:25:00] **Scott:** a leader being able to be open with the team saying, I'm, you know, this is unsettling for me too. Uh, you know, I've, I've, I'm in the same boat potentially depending on the situation.

You know, I gave the

[00:25:12] **Andrew Lloyd Gordon:** Mm-hmm.

[00:25:13] **Scott:** of a restructured in an organization that is likely to affect that leader as well. So being saying, yeah, this is unsettling for me too, I. I'm human, but we'll, as you said, we'll get through this. you know, we've got a good, strong team here. We've got coping mechanisms, we've got support mechanisms.

[00:25:32] **Andrew Lloyd Gordon:** Yeah,

[00:25:33] **Scott:** the direction we want to go

[00:25:34] **Andrew Lloyd Gordon:** I.

[00:25:34] **Scott:** You know, maybe we've been here before and we've got through things. As you know, the leader doesn't have to be completely bulletproof because, you know, they will tip themselves over the edge, but it needs to be safe for them to communicate their team as well, that

[00:25:46] **Andrew Lloyd Gordon:** It,

[00:25:47] **Scott:** this together, I think is

[00:25:48] **Andrew Lloyd Gordon:** it really doesn't. It really does. Yeah, I, I absolutely agree. I think that vulnerability, that authenticity people can pick up when you are BSing them, shall, shall we say, they see you as a leader at your high points, but they also see you at your low points. So if you claim that you are. Super confident they can tell whether you are or not.

So that authenticity to a point. I think what we don't want leaders to do is to fall to pieces. We don't want leaders to say, oh my goodness, everything's terrible. We want our leaders to be And authentic, and it's, it's a hard act to pull off. But a few things before we sort of maybe draw this to a close, I think there are a few practical things that we can recommend people can do.

And one of my favorites, uh, one of the things we can talk about, you know, is contingency planning. We, we, we've touched upon that briefly. What we should have in our plans is, like I said, with the the military example, what if, what if, what if we want to think about a plan? And have some contingencies built in.

We want to look at the plans and then assess the risks and rank them. We can do that prioritization, but one of my favorite techniques is what's called a a pre-mortem. Are you familiar with that pre-mortem idea?

[00:27:01] **Scott:** the

[00:27:01] **Andrew Lloyd Gordon:** You can. You probably have. Yeah, so if you're not familiar with a pre-mortem and, and anybody listening to this, if, if you've not heard of the idea is a post-mortem is clearly what we do after something has happened, usually a, a death, um, but a post-mortem looks at what happened.

You know, and the mistakes that were made, is before you start the project, before you start the plan, you imagine it has failed. You imagine something's gone awry, something's gone wrong, and what you then say is, okay, imagine guys, we're launching this product, we're launching this revenue stream, we're doing whatever it is.

Let's imagine it, it doesn't work. Why didn't it work? And this, this is a really great tool and the research suggests that organizations and projects where they do a pre-mortem, it's, it's like a ridiculous percentage, like 10 times more likely to succeed. So a pre-mortem is you've got the plan. You have to force yourself to say, let's do some worst case scenario planning.

Now, my experience, lots of organizations don't want to do that. And I dunno about you, but I think there's a, there's a feeling that let's not think this could go wrong. We want to be confident, we wanna be positive, but a pre-mortem will actually bring out some of those risks. Maybe not thought about or, the other thing I say before I sort of hand back to you, Scott, from any, any final tips is pre-mortems, encourage people to speak up.

I'm sure you've had the experience. You are in a project and you, you don't wanna say anything 'cause it's politically not safe to say anything, but you are thinking that's not gonna work. Have you ever had that type of meeting?

[00:28:38] **Scott:** Yeah. Especially if it's someone really senior . In the meeting. You're like,

[00:28:41] **Andrew Lloyd Gordon:** I

[00:28:41] **Scott:** their pet project. This is like, oh, it's not gonna work. Uh, that, can I say this in front of all their peers and embarrass them?

[00:28:49] **Andrew Lloyd Gordon:** absolutely.

[00:28:49] **Scott:** I even tell them afterwards? Or do we just sit on it and let them find out themselves?

[00:28:55] **Andrew Lloyd Gordon:** Well, the, the, the danger is if you don't do one of these pre-mortems, like I said, so contingency planning is sort of similar to this, but pre-mortem is actually forcing people to say it's failed. Let's imagine six months from now we tried this and it failed. Why did it fail? It gives people, like you just mentioned, the space to go.

Can I just suggest something which you may not have had the opportunity to before. So I think there's a few things you can do as, as a leader, as a manager, to practice dealing and leading through uncertainty. Any, any other practical tips that you would offer people?

[00:29:26] **Scott:** Yeah, so. What you said absolutely resonates. It's, there's a process I've used with teams called, uh, sprint, which came from Google, and it started at the end. So it's like, what does success look

[00:29:36] **Andrew Lloyd Gordon:** Hmm.

[00:29:36] **Scott:** And then look backwards and it's, it's tied into what you're saying about how do we get there. So it's all very good to be positive about it, but what are the things that are gonna catch you out now that won't be completely. Foolproof. It won't cover everything. 'cause as we've said, there will be political and environmental and lots of other things that you can't count for, but at least you've got a bit of a head start. I think the other thing I'd say is try to get into the head space of, said, focusing on a roadmap, a direction of travel rather than a fixed plan. So saying, right, we know we want to get to how we get there, is flexible, and that's really powerful and empowering, as you said, giving people more power to make decisions at a more local level, lower down the chain. And actually trying to get to a culture and mindset that uncertainty is normal and that

[00:30:21] **Andrew Lloyd Gordon:** Yeah.

[00:30:22] **Scott:** we embrace it.

We don't fight it.

[00:30:24] **Andrew Lloyd Gordon:** Yeah.

[00:30:24] **Scott:** you know you're unlikely to win that fight if you're very rigid. And saying from a leadership perspective, I. Communication is key as well. So

[00:30:33] **Andrew Lloyd Gordon:** Hmm.

[00:30:34] **Scott:** that plan, that direction of travel. together with people to understand that we're all in this together.

Being humble and taking action. I think the other thing not to do is to just be like a rabbit in the headlights and sit there and think, frozen. I dunno what to do. There's too much change. Actually taking some

[00:30:55] **Andrew Lloyd Gordon:** Yeah.

[00:30:56] **Scott:** that first step. And being prepared to change course is better than just sitting still and letting it happen to you.

[00:31:04] **Andrew Lloyd Gordon:** Yeah, completely. And I, I would agree with that totally. I'd say that you know, in your decisions, in your plans, you need to embrace uncertainty. You need to factor uncertainty in, you need to look for uncertainty in a way perhaps you've not done before. You need to encourage your team. To think about uncertainty and then, you know, build that out into, into the culture that we, we think about uncertainty.

'cause if you don't have that approach, that's not a strategy. You're just hoping for the best and that's not the way to do it. And, and what I'd suggest, Scott, as we wrap this up, is if there's anybody listening to this, we'd like some help with managing or leading through uncertainty. You know, you and I, this is our thing.

So, you know, please give us a shout out in the, in the messages on, on the podcast or via. Our websites, we'd love to help you if you are dealing with uncertainty at the moment.

Thank you for listening to the Work Unraveled podcast. We hope you enjoyed this episode. Be sure to subscribe to the show so you don't miss the next one. 

[00:31:59] **Scott:** If you'd like Andrew or me to help you or your business, whether it is for team productivity, leadership, coaching, or communication skills, our website addresses are in the show notes.

Thanks, and until the next time.