[00:00:00] **Andrew:** Hi, I am Andrew. Welcome to the Work Unravelled podcast. In each episode, we break down a piece of the workplace puzzle, providing practical insights, fresh perspectives, and actionable solutions to help you navigate the ever-changing world of work. 

[00:00:15] **Scott:** And I'm Scott, whether you are a leader, a professional, or simply curious about what makes organizations tick, this show offers strategies to think smarter, work better, and lead boldly join us as we turn workplace complexity into clarity.

One episode at a time.

Welcome to Work Unravelled. Today we are diving into something surprisingly that is overlooked breaks at work.

Many professionals wear exhaustion as a bit of a badge of honor.

[00:00:42] **Andrew:** Hmm.

[00:00:43] **Scott:** Uh, and what if taking breaks actually makes you more productive? So we're gonna unpack today the science, the strategy, and the real world benefits of pressing pause when you are at work or working from home.

[00:00:55] **Andrew:** I think it's interesting you said there that, you know, this idea of working hard is a badge of honor. Um, we do have a culture of work, work, work, grind, grind. There's never a spare moment, never a moment to sort of kick back and. You know, relax. And so I think what we need to stress in this episode and get across is that taking breaks is not being lazy.

It's actually very, very sensible. And it's, it's this idea of self-care, but also leadership. So how, how you take breaks as an individual, but also if you're managing a team that you indicate to your team that taking breaks is actually. Something that is positive and, and we should talk about, you know, being intentional with how we rest, uh, with how we focus and our sort of overall general wellbeing.

So yeah, I think we should share some tips on, on ideas for taking breaks for leaders and managers and anybody in the workplace that's, you know, working really hard and especially for those working remotely. 'cause I think, um, you know, we've touched upon in previous episodes, the idea is that because you're working from home and we are both working from home, is that.

You're kicking back and you're not working very hard. In fact, sometimes the research suggests is that people working from home work longer and harder than people in offices sometimes.

[00:02:06] **Scott:** Yeah, I think people struggle to switch off then 'cause it's just, well I'll just do another half an hour and then realize it's got in the past, the dinner time or tea time, depending on what you call it.

[00:02:14] **Andrew:** that's And uh, or, oh, I'll just do a bit of the weekend. 'cause the computer's right there, it's dangerous. Yes. It's always on. Or, you know, uh, I was talking to somebody the other day and she, she'd had a really busy day and she, she worked from home and she had that flexibility, but then at nine o'clock, 9:00 PM she's got like 200 emails to deal with. So she turned the laptop on at 9:00 PM and started working on her emails.

Now guess what? She didn't have a great night's sleep that night. Because she was, mine was buzzing, but she felt the pressure to get on with, with the work. But, um, yeah. My. breaks gone.

[00:02:49] **Scott:** My partner's the same. We just had a week's holiday away and she was dreading the week's worth of emails barara she was gonna have Monday morning, so she she'd logged on quickly Sunday evening just to try and see if there's anything urgent. Try and clear through some of those things.

[00:03:04] **Andrew:** Yeah, I, I think we should talk about holidays. We'll talk about breaks and holidays, but yeah, it's quite common that people dread going away and then while they're away they can't, they can't switch off 'cause they're worried about what's coming in while they're away. And then because her work doesn't stop.

Well, the work, obviously the work carries on whilst you are away. But you're worried about what you're going to have to deal with when you get back. And people g log in, like you say, the, the Sunday evening or the Sunday afternoon. I mean, I, I'll be honest, I used to do that in the past.

I would go, I'd say, right, I'm, I'm gonna go upstairs on a Sunday afternoon and check what, what's come in.

Should we talk about why breaks matter from a sort of psychological perspective? Should, should we start there? I

If you think about the way that we operate as human beings, we tend to approach it as if we're machines.

And I think there's this assumption that if I want to, if I've got a, an eight hour work day, or I've got an hour of work, I will be able to focus for that eight hours. I can focus for that one hour, whatever it is. But we're not machines. And the evidence is, and the research suggests, is that we can do sustained focus, but only for so long, and we're not machines and we're natural organisms that follow rhythmic patterns.

So we go into periods of, of, of downtime, and then we need some rest, and then we can come back into that period of focus, and then we, we've got the energy, but we can only sustain that for a certain length of time before we need the rest again. So really what we're saying here, I think in this episode is that it's completely natural.

To take breaks. In fact, it's essential to take breaks. And I've got three sort of ideas I wanna share with people. There's one called, and this is when it sounds very jargony, Lance decrement. Have you ever heard of that?

[00:04:44] **Scott:** Do you wanna repeat that?

[00:04:46] **Andrew:** Vigilance, decrement, it's a fancy term to say. Essentially your performance, uh, declines over time if you don't take breaks.

And we probably all have this feeling where you sort of, you might be doing this now, uh, Scott listening to me, anybody listening to me, you sort of zone out and you suddenly catch yourself that you've actually switched off. And that's basically what's happened is you've been trying to focus, you've been not taking breaks, and then the brain just literally detaches if you like, and you, you're just into that, zoned out, you know, the glassy eyes type thing.

So if you do not take breaks on a regular basis, you cannot sustain. That performance. And really what we, uh, the evidence suggests is we, we operate in these cycles and they're called ultradian cycles, where you'll have a period of focus and that for many people will be about maybe 90 minutes, 120 minutes.

So an hour, an hour and a half to two hours, and then you have to take a break. Now, if you try and force yourself through that. 90 minutes, you'll end up making poorer decisions. Your cognitive function will decline. You're not literally thinking as well as you, you should be. And eventually, if you carry on forcing yourself through those sort of 90 minute blocks, you're gonna get that, that burnout.

And then what can end up happening, we talked about this in the burnout episode, is you start becoming detached psychologically from the work. Um, even though you're sort of sitting at your desk, even though you're looking at your inbox, your brain cannot do it. And you become detached. You're less effective, you're more stressed, you're just not functioning effectively.

So really what we're talking about here is then, is that we're not machines, we're natural organisms and we work in rhythms and patterns, and we need to recognize that and accept that and if you like, celebrate it. So if you like, that's the psychological almost, you know, like neuroscience approach. Have you got any sort of practical tips that you could offer people from a sort of productivity perspective on, on taking breaks?

[00:06:43] **Scott:** Yeah, I just wanted to pick up one thing you said first, which was the, um, making bad decisions, and I'd read that. And I've, I've felt it myself. You know, I find myself getting, if I sit too long in a chair or I'm just trying to work for too long, I start to get agitated, a bit fidgety, a bit irritable. I'm like, I gotta get up.

I gotta step away from the computer. And people who are in, locked into their seat for a prolonged period of time, let's say they've got a day full of interviews, whether interviewing candidates all day or across two days, they can become. Less likely to positively see the potential candidates as they get closer to say lunchtime.

And actually the, I know there's research out there, you want to be interviewed first thing. There's certain times of the day where they've proved like the statistics that say you're less likely to get the job, then you'll be seen more negatively by the panel.

Same with um, uh, what's it called when you go to prison appeals.

Um. 

[00:07:42] **Andrew:** that process myself, Scott. So you'll have to

[00:07:46] **Scott:** Parole boards.

That's it. In America, they did some research that parole boards, depending on the time of day, you might be seen more favorably than someone else at a different time of the day, which is really quite scary.

[00:07:57] **Andrew:** Well, yeah, and, and you are actually right there. I think the research you're talking about, there's probably been a couple of these where they, they had judges and they, they looked at the sentencing that judges gave, um, whether the judges just had a break or before break or after a break. And what they found was that if the judges had been forced through, you know, they, that load of cases to, to look at, I think it was parole, I think you're right, I think it was parole boards, um, before their break.

Like they'd been working all morning. They were less likely to give. Parole. But if they'd had a break immediately after the break, you know, they're more likely to give you parole. Um, because their brain is rested. They've had a chance to step away. You know, they've shaken things out, they've walked around the block or something, and then they can focus again.

But just before the break, you start that, um, advert, you know that you're not yourself when you're hangry. You know, when that, um, was it, is it Snickers or whatever it is that's famous? Do we do promotions on this podcast? But you know, where, where you.

[00:08:51] **Scott:** there are other chocolate bars available.

[00:08:53] **Andrew:** Of course, but they, they did find in that, that research, I think you're right, they, that if judges were tired, they were so, they were irritable, they were basically irritable and they weren't giving people parole.

Even though on the evidence, on the sort of whatever it criminal, I dunno what it's called, the sort of, uh, charge sheet, I suppose this person should have, uh, parole. But yeah. So yeah, get, get your, get your parole in just after they've had the break your parole request.

[00:09:20] **Scott:** but yeah, same with interviews. You know that their subconscious is probably saying. This person is stopping me from having lunch now. I'm really hungry. They're getting in the way of me doing, you know, getting out of this chair. They might not be conscious of that, but surely there's, there's probably some subconsciously going on, like I'm getting hangry, as you said.

[00:09:37] **Andrew:** Well, the brain, the brain is consumed some, like 20% of our calories and resources. And as you've used it all up that morning, your brain is crying out. Your bo sorry, your body is crying out for extra energy and to move and to get some food into it and, and you just can't function. It's like your batteries are drained.

So yeah, it's, it's, uh, really, really interesting. But again, the point you're making in this episode is that we need to recognize that. We're not robots. We may be replaced by robots eventually, but we're not robots just yet. So have you got any sort of tips then practically then things that sort of things people can do, you know, if, if they accept the breaks are important and, and essential.

Any ideas on how people can make that sort of practical?

[00:10:18] **Scott:** Yep. So there's, there's two types of breaks. We can call them micro breaks and macro breaks. So a micro break can be from 30 seconds to 10 minutes, and it's just. Stretching. Standing up from the desk, stepping outside, getting some sunlight, doing some deep breathing. You know, people have, who have smart watches these days, , the watch will tell you to stand up and take a break.

It's following that advice. There's a reason that they've baked that in. And the research says optimally. Ideally every 25 to 30 minutes, take a five minute break, and certainly if you are in a meeting or doing a presentation for a long period of time, I've always followed the rule that one break at least every hour.

If you've, if you're sat with a group of people talking to them, presenting them, running a workshop. At least give them a five, 10 minute break every hour, or you will start to lose them. And uh, some people may have heard of the Pomodoro technique, uh, and if that's taking, , a break, doing intense work for say 20 minutes, then taking a five minute break and doing another period of work for 20 minutes and then taking another five minute break and then going through a cycle.

When you then, after a series of those, you take an even longer break.

[00:11:25] **Andrew:** hmm.

[00:11:26] **Scott:** So you'll be amazed at the impact of that, just that. Separation. Now you have to balance that with the interruption to your thinking in terms of if you're doing deep work and then suddenly you get pulled out by somebody else that can have an impact.

But if you are in control of being pulled out of that deep work, it's gonna have less of an impact, I think. So, yeah, micro breaks 30 seconds to 10 minutes and take them quite frequently.

[00:11:51] **Andrew:** I think some offices, if you work in an office, people getting up and walking around, it's okay. Um, some people would look at you a bit suspiciously. I think I've worked in places where, you know, if you got up every 25 minutes and walked around, they'd probably think you were just lazy.

Do you know what I mean? There there is, some cultures are, are different. I don't, when you had teams, would you, you, you didn't check on people where they were going, you know, time, time them when they went to the toilet sort of thing, but.

[00:12:18] **Scott:** No

[00:12:19] **Andrew:** Otherwise people do go and hide. They go and you know, I'm going to the stationary cupboard.

If people still have stationary cupboards, do people still have stationary cupboards? But yeah, people would actually go and get themselves a break, but pretend they were doing something else and just going down the corridor to see somebody. Although, yeah, even if you, if you work from home, you do need to even get up from your desk every 25, 30 minutes.

Get yourself a break. It's essential. This is what we're saying really in this.

[00:12:42] **Scott:** And as we said before, it's harder when you're working from home 'cause you don't have those walks to the meeting rooms or someone else in the other side of the room where you just want to get up. I'm gonna have a quick chat with them and ask them something. Now it's a quick typed message or a video call.

So I think it's even more important for those, those home workers.

[00:12:59] **Andrew:** yeah. I mean, sometimes interruptions if they're timed perfectly, could be that break that you needed. Somebody comes over and says to you. You know, can I talk to you about this? It's, it's the interruptions that are constant that that's frustrating. But um, yeah, you, you do need to manage that. You know, you do need to get up.

If I've been sitting here for 20, 35 minutes, it's actually a good thing that I break and doing something else for five minutes and then come back to this rather than No, no. Forcing yourself through that, that sort of feeling of why, why can't I concentrate? 'cause you need a break. That's why you can't concentrate.

So get up and have a break.

[00:13:34] **Scott:** yeah, and the , the catchphrase for that is interrupt your focus to preserve your

[00:13:37] **Andrew:** Yes, exactly.

[00:13:39] **Scott:** Rather than just trying to be focused intently for two hours straight, it's going to wane and you'll make bad decisions.

[00:13:45] **Andrew:** I did a project years ago for an Italian bank called Uni Credit. I think that's how they say it in Italian. We'd say Uni Credit, and they one of the biggest banks in. It's, I think maybe the biggest bank.

And I was running a session with them in the morning and we got to about 12 and we'd only started like nine 30 and typical sort of British work culture. I was thinking, well, we'll work for another hour or so and finish about one. And they were like, can we stop now? It was like 12 and we went down to the, the basement at it was on like, um, lower, lower levels of the building and there was a full restaurant in this building and we stopped for two hours. To have lunch and I was like initially horrified like two hours. 'cause often in in British work culture and when I've run training sessions, people wanna work through their lunch. People eat at their desk. Now that's partly because there isn't anywhere for them to go. And if you are working on a industrial estate and literally you're surrounded by some sort of.

You know, um, some big main road, there's nowhere for you to go, but one of the breaks you should have is your lunch break and take your lunch break. And some people don't. Um, why don't they take the lunch, lunch break, do you think?

[00:15:03] **Scott:** They feel too busy.

[00:15:04] **Andrew:** too busy. I've got too many emails so that I know why people say they don't take the lunch break.

But having that break at lunch is a really, really powerful, uh, opportunity for you to step away. If you can try and take your lunch away from your desk, that's something else people do. And I think psychologically, your desk, if you're working in an office, even if you're working from home, your brain is still in work mode so you're not fully switching off.

So if you can take your lunch break, you deserve a lunch break, it will do you so much good to have that lunch break, but also go and have a walk. If you can, um, you know, go see if they can start a walking group with colleagues, see if you can walk around the building at least. And as I say, I know I've worked in, in many organizations where they want to, um, industrial estate and there's literally nothing around them.

But yeah, if you can just walk around the block, get outside, get some fresh air. The other thing I'd, I'd avoid, avoid doing if you could, is just scrolling on your phone. And I think sometimes when people have been working all morning, they pick up their phone as a sort of, I dunno, like an enjoyment passive activity.

But the evidence is that scrolling on the phone is keeping the brain active. It's keeping the sort of mind worrying away so you won't find it relaxing. You know,

[00:16:21] **Scott:** It's just a distraction. It's not actually decompressing, and it's not actually

disengaging, is 

[00:16:27] **Andrew:** Exactly, you're still like doom scrolling. You're trying to get to the bottom of Instagram. Uh, you're never gonna get to the bottom of Instagram.

So if you can, don't use your phone and you might wanna check in with emails from family or something, but try and get away from a desk. Take your lunch, see if you can get a walk around even 15 minutes and try and get some movement as well. And the research again suggests that movement moving the body will help you when you come back to get that focus again.

And of course the big break for people in a working place, a working environment, is when they finish work. And if you want to focus. In your work the next day, you need to rest the day before. So the real important, the really important break is when you finish work.

So what happens after work is gonna affect your performance the following day. So if you can, and we talked about the commute, so some people don't commute now, they just literally, you know, go from the, the bedroom to the office, five, five seconds down the corridor, they're in the back bedroom or something.

But if you've gotta commute, you know, using that commute to switch off. Um, you know, listen to your music. . Switch off if you're on a train and read your book or something. Unplug from work as much as you can. Switch off the notifications. Don't open up the, the work email. Try and step away from work completely.

Now, it's easier said than done. Particularly if you've got a manager or a leader. We've talked about this many times, haven't we? A leader or a manager that sends emails after hours or something. So if you're a leader, make sure you're not sending those emails after people have finished work officially. But also as a, as a discipline, make sure you've got some sort of routines in place. You know, I do not check emails when I get home or I do not check emails. Um, once I've left the building, that's it, I've done for the day. And the other thing, of course, is if you have got, um, routines in the evening that help you relax, hobbies, social life, you know, cooking, people enjoy all sorts of hobbies and things that will help them switch off, that's gonna help you rest.

That's also gonna help you the next day. Focus. And the most important thing in terms of breaks is sleep. Now, we could do a whole episode, and we're not sleep experts. But , all the evidence points to focus comes from having a good night's sleep, whatever you need, seven or eight, nine hours.

But quality sleep is the number one factor in being focused the following day. That's the ultimate break, I guess, so. Have you got any suggestions in terms of breaks and perhaps, I dunno, longer breaks, holidays or something? You've just been on holiday. What was your approach to relaxing? Did you relax on your holiday?

[00:19:06] **Scott:** I did. Luckily, yeah. And my other half, she did manage to, until she got back. We, we had a rule that we would not talk about work while we were away and we would not check any devices. We actually left both laptops at home,

[00:19:17] **Andrew:** Oh, well done.

[00:19:18] **Scott:** It was a last minute decision, um, to do that. Which leads me up, well to go on holiday, but it leads me on to my next point actually, is.

[00:19:25] **Andrew:** Yeah.

[00:19:26] **Scott:** Holidays are so important and it doesn't mean, people don't necessarily have the money to go abroad. But actually taking those holidays, I've worked with people who've build up loads of credit and, well, I haven't taken any leave this year and the organization I worked in previously would have a have to force people almost, you need to take some leave or you're gonna lose it.

You know? 'cause people just feeling so busy or they were workaholics and wanted to kind of protect that le leave for a rainy day. There's a, an entrepreneur called Daniel Presley, who I've read a few of his books and, one of the things in his book stood out for me is The First Thing You should Do, and it was written for entrepreneurs, but I think the same applies to employed people, is plan out your holidays a year in advance.

Not necessarily holiday abroad, but it could be a week off with a family. It could be a weekend away with loved ones, but actually map that out in your calendar, so you've got that to look forward to. You've got it planned and it's sacred time, and it's well in advance so that people won't try and then, oh, I need you to work this week.

You say, well, I'm sorry, I've already booked that off, and I think holiday and. Just time off work, long weekends, et cetera, is vital for that recharge time. It improves, there's evidence that says it can improve your wellbeing for up to six weeks, but only, and this is really important only if you do unplug properly, and that means literally unplug.

Avoid taking that, you know, checking your devices, taking them with you on holiday. And I get that some jobs will require you to be on call or, but in that, those scenarios, you're not fully. Unplugged and detached. There's always something going on in the back of your head. What if that phone goes, what if they need me?

[00:21:05] **Andrew:** I've, I've had, well, I think probably myself, people who've been on holiday and then they think they need a holiday after their holiday because they, they come back more 

[00:21:13] **Scott:** And then the work hits you. You've got the 600 emails that were arriving while you were away, you've now gotta deal with, yeah.

[00:21:20] **Andrew:** So, yeah, ho holiday and really go on holiday. Don't just be away from the desk, be on holiday and, and, and there's always a, I dunno about you, but that often takes two, three days at least to get into the holiday mode.

[00:21:32] **Scott:** Mm.

[00:21:33] **Andrew:** do you find that on holiday?

[00:21:34] **Scott:** Yeah, it can do.

[00:21:35] **Andrew:** you need to allow for that actually.

[00:21:37] **Scott:** Yeah. Yeah.

[00:21:39] **Andrew:** Any other holiday tips then? So what? You didn't take, I'm impressed you didn't take devices. That's really impressive. Although it shouldn't be, should it?

[00:21:46] **Scott:** We took phones. We

weren't a completely complete like disconnector for the world. It was close, but, um, no, just no work devices. Um, and, and the other part is. What we call the reentry or coming back into to work is don't jump straight back into stress. So, as we've said, try and avoid logging on the night before or the day before.

And again, we've talked about it before. The temptation is to open that inbox straight away. The minute you do that and you see all of those messages, you're just gonna, your holiday will be long forgotten. So Ally. Think about, again, managing your time. Check out the other episode we did recently about your morning routine.

Actually, it's almost more important, I'd argue, when you're coming back from a break, to not just go back into the old ways. Say, alright, just go into my inbox now, and then you spend three days catching up with all the emails that have been coming in while you've been off. That will demoralize you and really undo that holiday break.

So I'd say let's do some really productive first thing. As soon as you can. Try and protect your time. Do some high value work that you maybe you, knew that you wanted to do before you went on leave and maybe actually plan some of those things before you go on, leave on holiday in your calendar. So maybe the first few days from your, your return, actually block out some of that time

[00:23:05] **Andrew:** Mm.

[00:23:06] **Scott:** to do the tasks that you know are waiting.

[00:23:08] **Andrew:** Yeah, I think you're right. I think you, as you said, you plan your holidays, but also plan what you're gonna do after you get back from the holiday.

[00:23:15] **Scott:** Hmm.

[00:23:15] **Andrew:** Don't just like drop back into it if you can. You know that. And I think when you're on holiday, that would help psychologically to know that I can switch off now because I have a plan for when I go back. Rather than at the airport trying to desperately trying to catch up. And, and if, as you said, if you've told people on holiday and you've, you've scheduled backwards from the holiday, I, I was always impressed with people who looked ahead, ahead of the year and looked at all the bank holidays and sort of had they, they had extra time off because they put their holidays around the bank holidays.

I was never smart enough to do that.

[00:23:46] **Scott:** Yeah, I've seen that quite a lot.

[00:23:48] **Andrew:** I never organized enough.

[00:23:49] **Scott:** Yeah, so we've mentioned it before though. So there is an issue that people don't take

[00:23:55] **Andrew:** Mm.

[00:23:56] **Scott:** the breaks that they deserve or they're entitled to, and maybe we should unpick why that is. I think part of it is thinking about. Imposter syndrome, guilt, , internally thinking, well, I'm busy if, if I, if I take my foot off the gas, people won't think I'm committed enough.

There'll be those kind of things. Have you seen that?

[00:24:16] **Andrew:** I, I think there's definitely something around the individual response to work and I need to be there and this sort of need to be wanted, uh, you said about imposter syndrome. I need to aim for perfection, so therefore I need to be there fully. And uh, so yeah, I think this is the individual response, but also as a work culture, if you find that your team are not taking their holiday, you need to know why.

Now you don't want people sort of kicking the backside out of it, but you want, if you're giving people a certain amount of holiday, they should be taking it. Have you, have you had that situation where organization say, you don't take your holiday, it it, you can't roll it over. Have you ever seen that?

You

[00:24:53] **Scott:** Yeah, I, so I had the policy in the organization I work for, I, it was a while ago now, but I think it was you could carry over five or seven days into the new year, but you had to use them within the first month

[00:25:06] **Andrew:** Yeah, I sort

[00:25:07] **Scott:** that new calendar year, rather than, you just can't keep building them and building, or you lose them.

[00:25:11] **Andrew:** that's, I, I understand that. I think there's a logic to that. Yeah, I get that. But if you are finding, and maybe something, a metric that organizations should track is if you're finding a lot of your, your team are not taking their holiday allocation, that should be a warning sign, 

[00:25:26] **Scott:** Hmm 

[00:25:26] **Andrew:** Why are they not taking their holiday? 

[00:25:29] **Scott:** They're probably heading him for burnout.

[00:25:31] **Andrew:** Yeah, that's absolutely, it's probably , a leading metric that would indicate people are having burnout if they're not taking the holiday. But, but you get this like, nagging message usually from, don't be too hard on HR people, 'cause probably have some HR person listening, but you get this message from HR saying you must take your holiday.

You can't take it over well. Shouldn't you be checking on that? Why are people not taking the holiday? Yeah, so people don't take the holiday out of guilt, pressure, too much workload, you know, and anxiety about missing out on opportunities. There's a ton of reasons, but again, as we've said with the whole break thing, a good holiday is gonna transform your performance for weeks after the holiday.

That's why you wanna space those holidays out because you keep getting that improvement, that performance boost every time you go away.

[00:26:15] **Scott:** So how do we shift this then? How do we shift the mindset for those people who were reluctant to take holiday or to take breaks and they think, you know, hopefully we've convinced them by listening to this

[00:26:24] **Andrew:** well, hopefully we've convinced them that taking a break. I'm not, hopefully don't, don't wanna take a break from this podcast, but I think it, it's about an individual behavior, individual awareness. So this is what we're trying to do here, is that having a break, you know, five minute breaks through throughout the day, weekly breaks, breaks in the evening, regular holidays, it's crucial.

It's not optional. It's not a luxury. It's essential. And if you wanna succeed in work, if you wanna succeed in your career, you want to be, you know, a productive member of the team, take breaks. It's gonna help you rather than hinder you. It might feel that that five minute break or 10 minute break is time you could be working.

You're just not gonna be as effective as as you would be with taking a break. So yeah, it's individual behavior, but it's also cultural within the organization. And as a leader, you wanna set an example. We always come back to leaders who. You know, emphasizing to the team that you, you respect the team, you value the team.

You, you value their mental health, you value their, their physical health. So yeah, as a leader, you want to send the signals that taking breaks is essential. So if you are leading a team, you have your breaks, you know, you need to show how people can switch off after five. As we've said many, many times, don't be sending messages after work.

Um, demonstrating, if you like, leading by example, I guess. Um, thinking about how you run meetings, make sure people have plenty breaks, you know, if, if there's a meeting, don't insist you have another meeting immediately afterwards. You, you know what I mean? Like, there's a leadership, uh, responsibility with breaks as much as the individual behavior would.

Would you agree?

[00:28:00] **Scott:** Yeah. Yeah. Setting that standard. Um. So, yeah, it's a cultural issue as well as an individual issue, isn't it, in terms of trying to change that mindset. And I think people can also support that with things like with, I mentioned earlier, smart watches will tell you to take a break, but if people haven't got that, you know, setting a timer on your computer or your phone, say, okay. Google, for example. That's probably set everybody's

[00:28:24] **Andrew:** No, that's right. Or the A word.

[00:28:25] **Scott:** off. Yeah. Um, set me a timer for 20 minutes and then when that timer goes off, you know, that means stand up, take a little break. Um, using your computers do not disturb mode as well. So when you step, if you're in a meeting, stepping away.

Right? Everyone in the meeting, we're gonna take a break. If there's a virtual meeting, camera's off mute. Microphone back in. 10 minutes, five minutes, go and have a leg stretch, comfort break. Uh, that works well.

And I think actually plan your breaks, like your meetings, actually put them into your calendar as well and protect them so people will know where you are if they try and look for you at that time.

I'm having a break.

[00:29:02] **Andrew:** and and wouldn't that be great if we had a culture where breaks were as important as meetings? Breaks were put into people's diaries and calendars, and they were protected and reserved rather than just optional, because breaks are not optional. They're strategic. They're really, really essential.

Thank you for listening to the Work Unravelled podcast. We hope you enjoyed this episode. Be sure to subscribe to the show so you don't miss the next one.

[00:29:26] **Scott:** If you'd like Andrew or me to help you or your business, whether it is for team productivity, leadership, coaching, or communication skills, our website addresses are in the show notes.

Thanks, and until the next time.