[00:00:00] **Andrew:** Hi, I am Andrew. Welcome to the Work Unravelled podcast. In each episode, we break down a piece of the workplace puzzle, providing practical insights, fresh perspectives, and actionable solutions to help you navigate the ever-changing world of work. 

[00:00:15] **Scott:** And I'm Scott, whether you are a leader, a professional, or simply curious about what makes organizations tick, this show offers strategies to think smarter, work better, and lead boldly join us as we turn workplace complexity into clarity.

One episode at a time.

[00:00:32] **Andrew:** In this episode, we're gonna be talking about something that isn't as positive, maybe as some of the other episodes we've talked about, and it's about the idea of. Uh, you know, uncertainty and anxiety about your job, and especially that R word, the dreaded R word redundancy. And if we're honest, redundancy is something that most people, although I I do know some people that can't wait to be made redundant.

You ever worked in anywhere where if there's a whiff of redundancy? Some people are so keen, they're like, pick me, pick me.

[00:01:02] **Scott:** Yeah.

[00:01:03] **Andrew:** but for many people, the idea of being maybe redundant, you know, losing your job is hugely. Uh, anxiety creating. It's something that people are very, very anxious about. So what, what we're gonna talk about in this episode is this rather unpleasant idea of job insecurity and the potential for redundancy.

And we were talking before we started recording that I think for a lot of people with ai, more and more people are starting to be concerned that they might lose their job, you know, through, through ai. So if you want, are one of those people, what we're gonna try and do is give you some tips and suggestions on how to reframe.

A redundancy or, or how to reframe that, uh, uncertainty and how to better deal with it. Um, and how to prepare yourself if that actually, unfortunately happens to you. And, and the stat Scott, though, I dunno if you, you are aware of, but something like one in three, according to the Chartered Institute of Personal Development in the UK quite recently, one in three UK workers are worried about their job and they're worried about job insecurity.

Does that, does that surprise you? It was that high.

[00:02:06] **Scott:** It does. It's that high. Yeah. That's quite scary

[00:02:09] **Andrew:** Yeah,

[00:02:09] **Scott:** And, and that means a good percentage of our listeners are, are currently facing this

[00:02:13] **Andrew:** I would think so. Yeah.

[00:02:14] **Scott:** so we are gonna include. Tips and techniques, as you said, to cover this, to help

[00:02:20] **Andrew:** Hmm.

[00:02:20] **Scott:** mindset, diversifying your skillset, and actually trying to mitigate the risk if it does happen, if the redundancy does happen, but also increase your chances of keeping the job you're in and

[00:02:31] **Andrew:** Yes.

[00:02:32] **Scott:** the job you that you're in as well.

[00:02:34] **Andrew:** Yeah.

[00:02:34] **Scott:** Um, we'll have some practical tips, things like skill mapping, scenario planning, and building emotional resilience that we'll be covering as well.

[00:02:42] **Andrew:** Yeah.

[00:02:42] **Scott:** should we get cracking?

[00:02:43] **Andrew:** Yeah, well I was gonna start as I would being a psychologist and, um, you know, as a psychologist, I always come from this angle, but I think you're gonna give us some sort of agile, practical tips. But from a psych psychological perspective, I think what we must recognize is that the idea of redundancy or uncertainty drives the stress response in us.

Now, different people respond to stress differently. We all have different approaches to uncertainty, but for many of us. That uncertainty triggers that flight or fight or flight response in our bodies, that sort of adrenaline cortisol and that that response is completely natural. You can't, you can't stop that response happening.

You can, you know, deal with it and manage it, manage it as we'll talk about. But one of the most, um, the biggest impact on people is that that stress that's being caused by the uncertainty. So I think the, the most important thing for people to realize that if you're feeling. Anxious. If you're feeling stressed, that's completely normal.

You'd be a bit odd, a bit strange if you didn't feel stressed and worried and concerned about this potential for redundancies and, you know, losing your job. And I think what can happen, and this is a sort of, um, ironic, uh, problem, is that when people start to fear that they're gonna be maybe redundant, if they fear they're gonna lose their job.

They, they tend to, you know, turn up more often. They turn, they tend to stay longer in the job. They, they wanna show that they're the person that shouldn't be made redundant. And you get this thing called presenteeism where people will, you know, go to every meeting they can, they'll respond to every email they can.

Um, and they become overworked. They can become even more stressed because they wanna show that they are, um, very valuable than they should be kept, or the opposite can happen. Where if you think you're gonna be maybe redundant, you sort of throw your hands in the air and you give up. So the, the most important thing here is that if you are in a position where you think your job is going to, you know, be maybe redundant or there's gonna be job changes, recognize that stress, recognize the, the impact, the cognitive impact.

Have you, have you experienced redundancy? I think you've had that yourself, haven't you? Do you mind sharing how, how that affected you psychologically or emotionally?

[00:04:56] **Scott:** Yeah, I always describe it as being accidentally made redundant. I won't go into detail, but it, it was totally unexpected. And for me it was a big hit to my identity

[00:05:08] **Andrew:** Yeah.

[00:05:08] **Scott:** been in the job for 20 years and, you know, we, you say to people, what's, what do you do?

That's the first thing. You meet somebody, what do you do? It's like,

[00:05:15] **Andrew:** Yes.

[00:05:15] **Scott:** I do this. This is my job. So a lot of people, as we know. Tie their job into their personal identity. So it's no wonder people are fearful of

[00:05:25] **Andrew:** Yes.

[00:05:25] **Scott:** being made redundant or their work changing that potentially feels like their identity is going to change or be

[00:05:31] **Andrew:** Yes.

[00:05:32] **Scott:** And that was a struggle for me

[00:05:34] **Andrew:** Hmm.

[00:05:34] **Scott:** um, to, to deal with. It took a good few months to, kind of overcome that was a bit of grieving going

[00:05:40] **Andrew:** Hm, hmm.

[00:05:41] **Scott:** the loss, and then it took. I kind of evolved out and realized that I wasn't defined by that job.

[00:05:46] **Andrew:** Yes.

[00:05:47] **Scott:** think that's a key thing to take away from that. if you are, you know, if it comes from out of the blue, it can really hit hard.

[00:05:54] **Andrew:** Yeah. And, and you know, through that he's got, you know, thanks for sharing that. My, my own personal experience, I've not personally been made redundant. My, but my father was made redundant twice. And I remember, and this is something again, people who are listening to this. You touched upon identity. My dad lost his job outta the blue the first time round and he was quite positive guy.

You know, he was quite sort of upbeat and, and sort of positive. And he got another job within a few weeks really. But then he was made redundant again within about six months and it was the second time around. That really knocked his confidence because he, he, he was very much, uh, uh, like typical male, but also for many people in the workplace now, male or female.

His, his job was him. He was his job. His job was him. It was very much his identity. So when he lost his job the second time round, he really struggled to get a second job. And I remember the emotional impact on him, but also, which, you know, we need to, to flag up the emotional impact on our family. You know, there was not just the pure loss of income, but it was the stress and the anxiety when we saw that dad was, was in a bad place.

So yeah. This, this whole thing about your job being, as you mentioned, being your identity, when you lose your job, as you said, it can feel like you're losing part of yourself. You know, who are you, what status do you have, what are you for? Did you have any sort of struggles that way? Did that sort of, is that, is that how you felt?

I mean, how did you, how did you sort of, you, you, you talked about getting out the other side, but was there any tips or techniques you could offer people to deal with that emotional

[00:07:31] **Scott:** Yeah,

[00:07:31] **Andrew:** stress?

[00:07:32] **Scott:** for me, I think for me personally, because it was. It generally was like collateral damage. It was an, it was, it was an accident, it wasn't intended. That helped me a bit with my self-esteem. You know, there was some very senior people in the organization apologized to me saying, we just didn't realize this was, whatever they did in the organization was gonna have a knock on effect and your role.

[00:07:55] **Andrew:** Hmm.

[00:07:55] **Scott:** that helped a bit because actually, if you look at the definition, I've just pulled it up now. The definition of redundancy is unnecessary or not needed.

[00:08:02] **Andrew:** Yes.

[00:08:03] **Scott:** Superfluous. you know, if you're defining a person

[00:08:08] **Andrew:** Mm.

[00:08:09] **Scott:** you know, you can see how that's really gonna hit home.

I think if it, if it had been intentional, I probably would've struggled a bit

[00:08:16] **Andrew:** Right.

[00:08:17] **Scott:** if I was given advice to myself in that position, I would be saying things like you. This doesn't, don't let this define your identity.

[00:08:26] **Andrew:** Yeah.

[00:08:26] **Scott:** See, you know, and it's cliched, but see it as an opportunity.

[00:08:30] **Andrew:** Yes.

[00:08:31] **Scott:** You hear people say, maybe it gives you the nudge that you needed. And it certainly did for me.

[00:08:34] **Andrew:** Yeah.

[00:08:35] **Scott:** was quite comfortable in that role after 20 years. and you know, we're gonna cover some things today around how to reduce the risk. Struggling when this, if and when it happens, actually diversifying your skills, things like that, that actually give you an opportunity. And we're gonna give people tools and techniques today to help get ahead of that, get upstream of that if it ever

[00:08:57] **Andrew:** It

[00:08:58] **Scott:** which will reduce some of that worry.

[00:08:59] **Andrew:** Indeed. And I think, I think you've made a really good point there. I think getting ahead of it is really important and, and if anybody's listening to this. How do you perceive your job? Is it very much your identity? Do you, like you said, if you went to a party barbecue and said, people said, you know, tell me about you.

Would you then say, I'm an accountant. I'm a software developer. Is it so tied up into your. Identity that if you are at risk of losing that job, that is definitely going to have an impact on you. So yeah, I think this is really important. Get getting ahead of this. 'cause the one thing we can predict in life is uncertainty.

You know, change is inevitable. It's gonna happen to us at some point that we're gonna have some sort of dramatic change. But what you pointed out there was, it's that lack of control. If you decide to leave a job, then emotionally you can cope with it. But if somebody imposes that change, change on you.

Particularly like with my dad. And like you, you know, it comes out the blue. It has a huge impact on you. So yeah. Thinking about your identity building support networks, we had a supportive family for my father. My father, you know, had us as a, as a family. But I think if you've got, um, supportive networks, you've got friends, you've got colleagues at work, you know, having that social support can make a huge difference as well.

I think leaders and managers have a responsibility to reassure people, you know, okay. If, if redundancies are down the track. Sometimes there's a sort of, you know, we can't tell people yet because all the details haven't been, haven't been sorted out.

But if we redundancies aren't coming down the track, 'cause you know, profits are low, um, we need to do some restructuring, telling people ahead of time, getting people. You know, ready for the change that's coming can also reduce that anxiety. So I think leaders have responsibilities as well to be as transparent as they can be with their team so that they reduce that anxiety.

So we've talked about the psychological impact, talk about the stress. Are there any sort of tools, techniques from a sort of agile approach, you know, using your agile mindset that would help people deal with, with this uncertainty thing? Scott?

[00:11:06] **Scott:** I always like to think of agility as seeing opportunities in change and seeing change as an opportunity and not a threat,

[00:11:15] **Andrew:** Hmm.

[00:11:15] **Scott:** and that that can be quite a difficult mindset to get into because I think we are hardwired to see change as a threat,

[00:11:22] **Andrew:** Yeah.

[00:11:22] **Scott:** but actually. The traditional way of thinking is very rigid and saying, well, this is my role, this is what I do.

And if I'm asked to deviate from that, then I will struggle If we can broaden our horizons a bit and maybe as an individual start to take an interest in other areas of the business or other

[00:11:40] **Andrew:** Yes.

[00:11:41] **Scott:** with other team members to try and diversify our skills. And there might be something else that you might be more interested in.

And actually the more the more. a skill set you can offer. Certainly AI could be one example,

[00:11:56] **Andrew:** Hmm.

[00:11:57] **Scott:** some personal research into ai. There's loads of free videos online on YouTube and free courses where you might just want to understand that a bit more. The more you build up a a bit of a portfolio or a suite of skills beyond maybe what you've been used to, the more valuable you will be to your employer and a potential future employer, but also. It's good for you actually. 'cause we get benefit from learning and you know, you have to have a growth mindset I think, to do this

[00:12:26] **Andrew:** Yeah.

[00:12:27] **Scott:** and to be able to think about that in that way. But I think expect change is a given and actually how can you be prepared for that. And part of that could also be identifying any gaps in your knowledge or experience where you think actually I'm a bit , weaker in this area.

[00:12:43] **Andrew:** Hmm.

[00:12:43] **Scott:** I could do some more, research in this. It will just help you build some confidence and help you build some resilience when that change happens or that change comes.

[00:12:56] **Andrew:** So really what we're talking about, and I think in then in this idea is that as human beings we sort of only expect the good times, or we only hope for the good times. And, and to sort of reduce the impact of redundancy, reduce the impact of uncertainty you should expect. The difficult times, you should expect the changes and the problems and the issues and we should do more to prepare for them.

And I think what you are saying here is if you can cross train, if you can get involved in other teams, you can get involved in other projects, you are gonna be better prepared for that change. Is, am I sort of misunderstanding what you're saying there, Al? Is that, is that,

[00:13:32] **Scott:** right. I think, I think it's linked to not defining yourself by that job title

[00:13:37] **Andrew:** yes.

[00:13:39] **Scott:** Thinking about yourself as offering a collection of capabilities of skills that could be applicable to different industries, could be applicable to different jobs. And not just to find yourself by that job description.

Because as I've said on previous episode, just face it, how often are we actually what our job description says we are these days?

[00:13:59] **Andrew:** Oh yeah.

[00:14:00] **Scott:** And actually just having that mindset, flexibility, creativity, yeah, it is a growth mindset and we need to develop that. I think some people, . But it's about just prepared as best you can.

Now, you don't know if and when these changes are gonna come, better to be prepared and have done something towards that than bury your head in the sand and hope that it won't happen to you.

[00:14:22] **Andrew:** Yeah. Yeah life is uncertain. Life is unpredictable and you need to prepare for that unpredictability. But we act as if, um, things aren't going to change.

I think it's called the permanence illusion. You know, and I dunno about you, but if you look at any stage of your life, if you could look backwards in your life, at any point you felt, well, this is how my life is. But then you look back now and think, well, it was gonna change when you, you see any photos of yourself at any point in life, you can say, you dunno what's gonna happen in the next six months.

Have you ever done that? You know, there's, there's a picture of you somewhere as a younger person and you know what's gonna happen in the next year or two years, whatever. And you, you know, maybe you'd wish you could go back and tell your previous self. So Yeah. And I guarantee you know, my life, your life, something's gonna happen in the future that we have no idea what's gonna happen.

Hopefully it's all good stuff. But it's also gonna be some negative stuff. So if we had an attitude as, as, as people that, yeah, I'm ready for this, I can deal with that uncertainty because I'm expecting uncertainty. You know, I'm expecting change, good or bad, I can deal with it. So it, it is a mindset, it's a growth mindset.

Is is what we're talking about. Um.

[00:15:35] **Scott:** so. I think in terms of for that, this bit, in terms of the next practical step that people can take is to a bit of a backlog in terms of their, um, their areas for personal growth

[00:15:47] **Andrew:** Yeah.

[00:15:47] **Scott:** and actually pick a range of items, do a bit of a skills audit, things that interest you, things where you. Like to learn something new or things have been quite useful in terms of way where you think the market is going. Put them into a list, prioritize them, break them down to small chunks and

[00:16:05] **Andrew:** Yeah.

[00:16:05] **Scott:** this Friday after work, or on my lunch break, or, no, we're trying to encourage people to take breaks in the last episode after work. Watch a 20 minute video on ai. An AI overview, for example, so you can start to get some understanding, tick that one off, then a few days later, do the next thing on the list.

You know? So bringing some agility into breaking down some tasks that you can do to start to broaden your skillset. I think that'd be really powerful.

[00:16:32] **Andrew:** Yeah, there was a Harvard Business Review that found that if employees felt that they were more employable, they were less likely, well, they suffered less anxiety about redundancy. So I think what you're suggesting there is a really great idea is that if you can. There may be no sign of redundancy coming, or even if there's a sense of redundancy coming or, or risk to your job is start taking proactive steps now to become more employable that may be more employable within your existing organization.

So if there's a reorg, you know, they've, they've noticed you're picking up these skills, you've taken new courses, or God forbid you are made redundant, then you're more likely to get a job because you've done all this extra work. So, yeah, making yourself more employable, I guess.

[00:17:15] **Scott:** and I don't think there's any harm in dusting off that CV and getting it up to date, even if you aren't intending on leaving and you are. Aren't expecting a redundancy.

[00:17:23] **Andrew:** Yeah.

[00:17:23] **Scott:** going through that process will be a refresher for you, and it gives you a head start. If something does come out of the blue, at least you're not scrambling

[00:17:31] **Andrew:** Yeah, yeah.

[00:17:32] **Scott:** You've got a bit of a head start with that. But it

[00:17:34] **Andrew:** Yeah.

[00:17:34] **Scott:** links into what we're saying is do a bit of a skills audit and say, actually, what would look good on my CV that's missing, that I actually have some capacity to look at now whilst I'm in a good place.

[00:17:46] **Andrew:** So you mentioned backlog. You're talking about like an an agile backlog. What, what, any tools that you would use for that? Any software, tools, or,

[00:17:53] **Scott:** So you can use tools like Trello as a, a common one, , or just a simple to-do list in your phone, if that's easy for you. Just something you can move things up and down the list, add things, check them off. Easily

[00:18:06] **Andrew:** Hmm.

[00:18:06] **Scott:** list of to-dos.

[00:18:08] **Andrew:** Yeah. Yeah.

[00:18:08] **Scott:** Don't wanna over confuse people with terms. Backlog is a term that's used in Agile, but it's just basically a prioritized list of tasks, .

[00:18:17] **Andrew:** Yeah. And, and I think you're right. I think if you could think of that yourself as a, a valuable asset, you know, how do you increase yourself as a valuable asset rather than I'm in this job, this job is me. You, you, you are a human being with huge potential. How else can you enhance that? That potential and value proposition, if you like, see yourself as almost like a, a product, how can you increase your value to your either existing customer, IE or existing organization or future customers, which could be in future employers?

What, what about things like, and this again, we talked about taking breaks and. You know, having downtime but side hustles and creating side incomes have, have you any thoughts on, on that? 'cause that can also act as a sort of anxiety buffer, can't it? If you've got sort of extra income coming in. Have you done a side hustle?

[00:19:07] **Scott:** I have, yeah. I was running my own business for all legitimate and declared through my previous employer, um, for a while, which actually gave me a, a good head start when the redundancy did come, because then I just, well, I've already got a company set up, so I will just roll into giving that. My full-time attention, which helped a lot.

[00:19:25] **Andrew:** Yeah.

[00:19:25] **Scott:** reading the article on the BBC website a few hours ago about people who are making 5,000 pounds a month on TikTok, sharing all their tips on beauty treatments and stuff. So again, these are people who followed a passion and they're doing that as a side hustle. But it's then overcome, overtaken their day job they've been able to pay off their debt.

So I was

[00:19:44] **Andrew:** Yeah.

[00:19:45] **Scott:** one particular thing. So the, the technology these days, obviously it's fiercely competitive now 'cause

[00:19:50] **Andrew:** Yes.

[00:19:50] **Scott:** or lots of people are gonna be trying to do it. But there, you know, if you've got a smartphone. That's pretty much all you need these days to, to start to look at different side hustles there's loads of inspiration out there, um, to, to try and do, you know, Google or search, ask ChatGPT or

[00:20:07] **Andrew:** Yes.

[00:20:07] **Scott:** ai, gimme some suggestions based on these interests that I have on what could do as a site hustle and it will give you some things for you to try.

[00:20:16] **Andrew:** I think aside to, as you said. If, if it's a side hustle that is going to, you know, take you in a brand new career direction, fantastic. Something you can do without burning out, that could also give you that sort of sense of, of safety. Um, we'll probably do an episode on things like side hustles and how you do them.

I think we also do need to emphasize that some jobs, you know, it's a big no-no. You can't do a side hustle because of conflict of interest. So if you are gonna do something like a side hustle, it's all gotta be above board legit. And, and we've gotta think about the tax man and, and you know, paying, paying your VAT and so on.

But if you can do things around your existing job that allow you to feel that if things go south, if I do lose my job, I have a plan. I have a plan, and I think, again, what we're trying to suggest here is at some point in the future, things will go in a direction that you don't want them to be, so prepare for that.

It's what, what's known as a pre-mortem, I think we've talked about this in previous episodes, is when you've got a project and if you see your career as a project, you plan forward in a positive way. You know what you want to have happen. That would be a good thing. You then turn it upside down and go, what would be the worst case scenario?

You know, what would happen if in a year's time I did lose my job? And being prepared for that gives you that sense of control. And this is where, you know, what, what we're touching, touching upon here from a psychological perspective, the most important thing here is that sense of control. 

[00:21:38] **Scott:** So I think a lack of control is what can make things so scary and redundancy have such a damaging impact on people. So what we're trying to do is try and develop that mindset, as I've said, of to be prepared, starting to expect change as a given and think change is. Potentially good is not always

[00:21:58] **Andrew:** Hmm.

[00:21:59] **Scott:** So, and if it is bad, I'll get through it. I'm, you know, I've got resilience, I've got skills. You know, there's plenty of other opportunities out there for you. So trying to build in that, broaden your skills, try and get that flexibility to get some feeling of control

[00:22:15] **Andrew:** Yeah.

[00:22:16] **Scott:** And I think that ties into leaders.

We haven't touched much yet on what leaders can do to support their teams,

I think transparency from leaders is important as

[00:22:24] **Andrew:** hmm.

[00:22:25] **Scott:** um, things like skilling your team up, sharing knowledge, letting them know that you are potentially in the same boat if there's some uncertainty going around the organization. Um, have

[00:22:36] **Andrew:** That's true.

[00:22:37] **Scott:** from, from the leadership perspective, Andrew, on that?

[00:22:39] **Andrew:** No, it's interesting. Yeah, no, it's interesting you say that. I, I think that, um, you know, control, as we've talked about all the way through this is so important. This what's called self-determination theory. The more sense of autonomy and control that we have, the happier we are as individuals. But you, you make an interesting point, that sometimes leaders in, in teams, they may be under threat of redundancy themselves.

You know, an entire section of the business might be going, it might not be redundancies, it might be that. You know, your business is being sold to a, a competitor or some, some venture capital companies coming in and buying up the business so that there's lots of uncertainty for the, the workforce, but also the, the leaders and managers.

So yeah, we, we have to be careful that we're not too hard on on, and sometimes I feel that we're too hard on leaders and managers here. But yeah, if you were a good leader, if you were a, a good manager. As a default, you are training your people to deal with uncertainty. You know, you're cross training them, you are helping them to be flexible.

You are upskilling them, you're helping them with that growth mindset. So in a way, if you are a good leader and a good manager, when and if, and I should say when change happens, they should be better prepared anyway, shouldn't they? If you're doing your job as a leader, your, your team, your individual, those individuals should be better prepared, don't you think?

[00:23:57] **Scott:** Yeah, and I think the leaders have responsibility to do things like, as we said, cross training. So encourage sharing skills across team members. So

[00:24:05] **Andrew:** Yeah.

[00:24:05] **Scott:** team members working together as a partnership for a while, swapping roles if they can,

[00:24:10] **Andrew:** Yeah,

[00:24:11] **Scott:** in what each other's doing, so removing that siloed approach,

[00:24:14] **Andrew:** right.

[00:24:14] **Scott:** but also

[00:24:15] **Andrew:** That I,

[00:24:16] **Scott:** Career of the team actually

[00:24:18] **Andrew:** yeah.

[00:24:18] **Scott:** the, you know, what's does their future look like, as well as your own. reviewing your own skills as a lead, your own interest, but also encouraging the team to do that themselves. Looking at market trends, how's, where's the industry going? Trying to get a handle on that and maybe even role playing some redundancy

[00:24:35] **Andrew:** Yeah.

[00:24:36] **Scott:** with team members if,

[00:24:37] **Andrew:** Hmm.

[00:24:38] **Scott:** that's going to happen.

[00:24:39] **Andrew:** Yep.

[00:24:39] **Scott:** So giving your team members some preparation before that happens. Doing some role playing interviews with them. And yeah, just trying to support them for that change that is inevitable and trying to build that team culture of changes are given. So what are we gonna do about it?

[00:24:56] **Andrew:** exactly.

[00:24:57] **Scott:** in the sand, as I said, or we can move forward positively and deal with whatever comes at us.

You know, I'd rather be in a team that's. that attitude than one that's scared and just away from the

[00:25:10] **Andrew:** Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:25:11] **Scott:** face it, head on. If things don't work out, that's okay. We can go with our heads held high that we did our best. actually along the way we've picked up the skills and knowledge to move into whatever the next chapter brings for us.

[00:25:22] **Andrew:** Yeah. Final thoughts for me? Really just Scott and thank, I think, I think it's really good what you're saying there. I think it's about building up that own personal mental resilience. We'll cover this in a, in a different episode. You know, we've touched upon in previous episodes, emotional intelligence, but things like journaling, meditation, mindfulness.

You know, having hobbies and interests outside of work, having that, uh, support, whether it's at home, family, friends, that's also really important. I've got a good, uh, book recommendation that's just come to me. It's a book called Designing Your Life by Bernard and Evans, designing Your Life is a really good book on what they call career prototyping.

So check that book out. Um, we'll probably put the notes, uh, uh, link to that in the notes. Um, and as you've said, and I think we've both been trying to say all the way through, uncertainty is a given. And if you have that. Redundancy. If you are gonna be maybe redundant, you're losing your job. Almost always it's, it's a opening of a door to something better and it's an opportunity and, and you know, resilience is about bouncing back from that and bouncing forwards.

So yeah, that, that's, that's the message I would leave people with.

[00:26:26] **Scott:** Yeah, likewise. I, I look back and think, I'm glad that happened

[00:26:30] **Andrew:** Yeah,

[00:26:30] **Scott:** I wouldn't be where I am now. I wouldn't have had the learning and

[00:26:32] **Andrew:** that's right.

[00:26:33] **Scott:** since then. I've significantly broadened my, my range . people I work with and yeah, so it's not always a bad thing.

[00:26:41] **Andrew:** Thank you for listening to the Work Unravelled podcast. We hope you enjoyed this episode. Be sure to subscribe to the show so you don't miss the next one. If you'd like Andrew or me to help 

[00:26:52] **Scott:** you or your 

[00:26:53] **Andrew:** business, 

[00:26:54] **Scott:** whether it is for team productivity, leadership, coaching, or communication skills, our website addresses are in the show notes.

Thanks, and until the next time.

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